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foreign

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[Music]

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foreign

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hello and welcome to the show I'm Martin

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Willis your host and you know in a

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couple days were coming up on my

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favorite

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um holiday in America Thanksgiving I

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just love it I think it's like an upbeat

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time and we reflect on things we're

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grateful for at least I do a lot of

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people do and uh I'm really grateful to

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be here first of all as a lot of you

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know that I uh I was out and with some

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pretty serious surgery and it's kind of

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changed my life in a way that I just I'm

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just grateful for every day and so this

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Thanksgiving is going to be extra

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special for me and I hope it is for a

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lot of you out there as well I'm real

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excited about today's show I've got

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David Marl is always a favorite here and

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Barry Greenwood which uh he's been

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researching UFOs for a long long time

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and we're going to be talking about a

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real exciting new launch David we'll be

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talking about that and Barry as we get

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into this today the blog for this week

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is Robert Gribble in the National UFO

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Reporting Center he's the founder of it

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he was kind of a controversial guide

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back way back when when it comes to

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nightcap and things like that it's a

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very interesting blog and also Wendy

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Connor uh she was involved in that too

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and if you have never heard the archives

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that Wendy Connor put together there's I

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think there's something like 252

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recordings vintage recordings of UFO

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Witnesses and that's all linked right in

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that blog so check that out in our show

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notes and I think that's about it I want

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to thank everyone for watching these

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shows and supporting the show anyone can

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do that over at podcast ufo.com I

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appreciate everyone and I am thankful

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for you all and it's time to bring in my

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two guests here's Dave marlar and Barry

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Greenwood welcome

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yeah nice to be here Martin great to see

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you healthy and back back in the saddle

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again so just want to say it's great to

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see you yes and Dave we were so looking

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forward to hanging out together and you

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know then I had to have that silly

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operation Martin you're like a bad date

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shag Harbor and then Phoenix Arizona

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yeah I know we were saying oh great

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we're going to be hanging out we're all

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excited well just shows you who's in

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control not me that's all you definitely

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had a valid excuse but in all sincerity

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it's great to see you back yeah well

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thank you very much so I'm excited this

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is kind of an exclusive uh uh talk about

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this situation and uh David I know you

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your beautiful archives out there and

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Barry you've been at it for such a long

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time and uh for those people looking

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right now you can see a lot of things

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behind uh behind Barry yeah it's all

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part of these archives and it's it's

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real exciting and so let's let's see

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Dave do you want to do you want to talk

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about how this all came about absolutely

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and I think the best place to start

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would be to really pick up where we left

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off it was 13 months ago that Barry and

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I were on the show with you that's right

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and at that time Barry and Jan Aldridge

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another colleague of ours uh we're here

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doing scanning and uh Barry what was the

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final tally about 36 000 pages that you

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scanned yeah I mean over two weeks uh

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yeah around 36 000 pages and uh you know

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it takes some time to sort all that out

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but we we had to budget the time mostly

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for scanning rather than sorting so you

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can always do the Sorting back home

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or or socializing well we get in the

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same room and none of us look at each

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other or talk to each other we're just

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busy stapling and organizing and filing

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and scanning yeah this time for that

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stuff later that's right that's right so

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and just uh as a point of clarity what

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we were working on are the historic

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nightcap and kufo's case files and so

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these are files that desperately need to

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be digitized and you know my hat's off

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to Barry really he's done the Lion's

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Share of work spanning about what the

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last six or seven years Barry I've been

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doing this uh each year almost uh

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omitting covid year uh since 2017 yeah

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so wow just so here's an incredible

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amount of work yes and and

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um I want to point out to the to the

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listener how important this is because

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this has nothing to do with money this

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costs money everyone is spending their

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own money everyone is spending hundreds

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and hundreds of hours of their own time

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just for the passion of preserving these

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this great history and so uh you know I

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my hat's off to you both

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yeah there's been tens of thousands of

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dollars invested and I would argue that

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the the team that that we've assembled

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collectively would probably be exceeding

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a hundred thousand dollars in the amount

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of uh purchasing travel costs shipping

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costs rental of U-Haul trucks to go and

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retrieve these collections from aging or

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dying researchers over the years and you

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know really uh we decided to create this

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new organization we've had nycap we've

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had apro we've had mufon and the center

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for UFO studies but all of those were

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really uh founded with the principle of

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conducting UFO research and certainly

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that's a component to what we're trying

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to do Martin but Barry and myself and

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our colleagues we created this new

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institution the National UFO historical

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records center with the express purpose

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of preserving the history and certainly

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researchers will will come and access

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the material to do their own research

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but historical preservation is really

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the Cornerstone of what we're trying to

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do with this new organize

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and it was born out of necessity we just

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didn't arbitrarily decide hey let's

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create a new organization

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um I think is evidenced by what you see

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behind Barry his entire home is filled

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with historical UFO material and I would

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argue it's probably the largest if not

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one of the largest in the country uh Jan

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Aldridge has much the same situation

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another colleague of ours Mr Rod Dyke

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from Seattle Washington arguably has one

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of the largest private Collections and

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uh at the top of the show it's funny

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Martin you mentioned Wendy Connors and

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Bob Gribble uh Rod Dyke has those

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collections as part of his overall

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collection and he has sent me behind me

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here stacked up you can see cassette

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tapes uh I I've actually got some of

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Wendy Connor's audio material that she

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never got around to digitizing so not

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everything is out on the internet and so

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uh we have you know Rod Dyke working

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with us we have Mr Rob swiatek who's of

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course on the international Board of

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mufon a dear friend and colleague and

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then really rounding off the group I

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think rather nicely we have Dr Mark

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rodiger and Mark representing kufos I

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became a kufos board member as their

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official archivist and having Mark in

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our fold I think is appropriate and also

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having Rob who is on the board of move

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on it really underscores the

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collaborative effort that you know we

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want to work together with these

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organizations and other archives that

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are out there not just freestanding and

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independent archives but Barry and I

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were chatting earlier this morning about

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Rice University and the University of

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Wyoming the University of Arizona that

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has Dr James McDonald's Case Files yes

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we want to create a network of archives

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and certainly that's just here in the

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United States we could argue there's

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some uh wonderful archives outside the

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United States such as AFU in Sweden uh

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they've done a tremendous amount of work

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and really I think has set the standard

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with regard to archiving UFO material is

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that uh class fund correct yeah great

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guy great guy they've done an incredible

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amount of work uh documenting and

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chronicling and preserving uh a lot of

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European UFO history but also uh United

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States material and uh I was on a chat

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group earlier today and someone from

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Australia said I wish we had something

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like this and ideally in a perfect world

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every country I would argue should have

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a historical UFO archive uh admittedly

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it's a global phenomenon but it's also

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part of each country's history

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um true when you think of the term

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Flying Saucer where was that coin 75

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years ago this year it was in Washington

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state right Kenneth Arnold being

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misquoted the term Flying Saucer was

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born the term UFO born out of uh the Air

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Force Project Blue Book and Captain

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Edward J Rupel and so there's a lot of

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American History that's part of this

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Global phenomenon right and you know

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what one thing I'm very happy about is

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that you decided to call it the National

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UFO historical record Center instead of

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national UAP historical record Center

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well make call me old-fashioned well no

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we've actually had a few people ask

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about that they said so you went with

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UFO and again in the vein in which this

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organization was created it's about

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preserving the history and when you look

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at the term flying disc or Flying Saucer

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those were rather short-lived terms in

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the grand scheme of this phenomenon in

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the history of the phenomenon the reason

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we went with UFO simply is because for

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the longest period of time that is the

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term that most people used to reference

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the subject right right now uh Dave you

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know I've teased you a bunch of times by

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saying you're going to need a bigger

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boat

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um you know the Jaws thing is that in

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part of what this uh was born absolutely

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like I said it was born out of necessity

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uh and again it's it's great that we're

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having this conversation 13 months later

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because literally uh very correct me if

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I'm wrong really the Inception of this

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idea took hold when you were here with

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Jan last October uh well actually I

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would push it back a little further and

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say it started when you began building

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that add-on to your house and putting

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these things in there that is the real

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beginning right but I think as far as a

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new organization I think really it was

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born out of that two-week period that

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you were here yeah I would say and where

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we really started to kind of you know

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solidify these ideas or these abstract

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visions that we had for what do we do

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with all of this material and and to

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your point uh Martin

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um Barry has run out of room I'm to a

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point where I'm very close to running

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out of room and we have uh Barry and

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Jan's material destined to come out here

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in the short term we also have Rod Dyke

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who stated if we can get a larger

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building he would send his entire

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collection Mark rodiger has already uh

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donated on loan the kufos file so that

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we can get those digitized in The

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nightcap files and in addition to that

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and quite literally I did a lecture

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00:12:10,009 --> 00:12:07,980
Series this year I did about eight

274
00:12:11,630 --> 00:12:10,019
lectures including Nova Scotia that we

275
00:12:13,970 --> 00:12:11,640
referenced earlier

276
00:12:16,370 --> 00:12:13,980
um in going to these various venues I've

277
00:12:18,590 --> 00:12:16,380
had people come up to me stating I want

278
00:12:21,050 --> 00:12:18,600
to donate my collection of UFO files I

279
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:21,060
was in Ohio and two researchers in Ohio

280
00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:22,800
stated can I get your contact

281
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:24,480
information because I'm putting you in

282
00:12:27,710 --> 00:12:25,440
my will

283
00:12:29,210 --> 00:12:27,720
and so it and this is what we've been

284
00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:29,220
asking for many many years even before

285
00:12:33,949 --> 00:12:31,860
this organization existed Martin we've

286
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:33,959
asked that people please make succession

287
00:12:38,750 --> 00:12:37,200
plans if you or a family member has a

288
00:12:41,210 --> 00:12:38,760
collection of historical materials

289
00:12:44,030 --> 00:12:41,220
because as Barry can Regale us with some

290
00:12:46,730 --> 00:12:44,040
very sad Tales over the decades many

291
00:12:49,250 --> 00:12:46,740
collections many rare items and

292
00:12:51,769 --> 00:12:49,260
historical uh artifacts have been

293
00:12:53,210 --> 00:12:51,779
discarded because simply because the

294
00:12:54,650 --> 00:12:53,220
individual died and the family wasn't

295
00:12:56,930 --> 00:12:54,660
interested in the subject and they

296
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:56,940
literally threw it in the trash uh in

297
00:13:02,389 --> 00:12:58,800
the blog this week that Charles Lear

298
00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:02,399
writes about Robert Biddle is it Bittle

299
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:07,009
sorry about that

300
00:13:12,590 --> 00:13:10,320
um he was frustrated uh with the UFO

301
00:13:14,810 --> 00:13:12,600
field at one point and went to the uh

302
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:14,820
landfill and put everything in the

303
00:13:18,110 --> 00:13:16,800
landfill these things happen and as a

304
00:13:20,930 --> 00:13:18,120
matter of fact some of the Project Blue

305
00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:20,940
Book files that were found in Ohio were

306
00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:23,220
at a yard sale if I if I remember estate

307
00:13:28,670 --> 00:13:26,160
sale or something yeah Mr Robert Mr Rob

308
00:13:31,129 --> 00:13:28,680
Mercer requires those and I got in touch

309
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:31,139
with Rob by virtue of the work that I've

310
00:13:35,389 --> 00:13:32,639
been doing but also I was lecturing out

311
00:13:37,490 --> 00:13:35,399
there in Ohio and fast forward a number

312
00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:37,500
of years we now have the Rob uh Rob

313
00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:40,079
Mercer slash Lieutenant Carmen Morano

314
00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:42,660
Project Blue Book material here next to

315
00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:44,700
I might add Dr J Allen heineck's

316
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:48,180
original Case Files wow exciting uh one

317
00:13:52,850 --> 00:13:50,160
of the things David that comes to mind

318
00:13:56,090 --> 00:13:52,860
is I remember you know you were on this

319
00:13:57,889 --> 00:13:56,100
show a number of times talking about

320
00:14:01,790 --> 00:13:57,899
um when something happens to you that

321
00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:01,800
these archives are to be uh donated to

322
00:14:06,350 --> 00:14:04,380
the University of New Mexico to preserve

323
00:14:08,569 --> 00:14:06,360
them so what's right what how does that

324
00:14:10,610 --> 00:14:08,579
fit into all this I'm excellent question

325
00:14:12,829 --> 00:14:10,620
Martin I'm glad you brought that up uh

326
00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:12,839
to be very clear uh this new

327
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:15,540
organization that we formed is there

328
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:18,000
really as a stop Gap measure the

329
00:14:22,129 --> 00:14:20,160
University of New Mexico is extremely

330
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:22,139
interested in acquiring this material

331
00:14:26,269 --> 00:14:24,000
because much like ourselves they view it

332
00:14:28,850 --> 00:14:26,279
as part of History it's not that UNM

333
00:14:32,030 --> 00:14:28,860
wants to endorse UFOs or they believe in

334
00:14:33,889 --> 00:14:32,040
UFOs uh but as as Barry can attest I

335
00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:33,899
took Barry there last last fall when he

336
00:14:39,230 --> 00:14:37,380
was here uh they view it as history and

337
00:14:41,449 --> 00:14:39,240
as such like any other element of

338
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:41,459
History it should be preserved and as

339
00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:42,720
I'm sure you and your audience can

340
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:45,540
appreciate especially here in New Mexico

341
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:48,660
with Roswell with Aztec New Mexico the

342
00:14:53,930 --> 00:14:51,120
Farmington Flying Saucer Armada the

343
00:14:57,050 --> 00:14:53,940
green Fireball cited over Los Alamos and

344
00:14:58,490 --> 00:14:57,060
uh Sandia National Laboratories Kirtland

345
00:15:00,410 --> 00:14:58,500
Air Force Base

346
00:15:03,290 --> 00:15:00,420
um such a rich history Socorro New

347
00:15:05,569 --> 00:15:03,300
Mexico uh White Sands I mean there's so

348
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:05,579
much much UFO history tied to this state

349
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:07,920
and I will tell you from a cultural

350
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:10,560
standpoint people are very open-minded

351
00:15:14,569 --> 00:15:12,480
to the UFO subject here in New Mexico I

352
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:14,579
moved here 10 years ago from the St

353
00:15:21,769 --> 00:15:18,480
Louis area and back in St Louis it just

354
00:15:24,530 --> 00:15:21,779
wasn't widely uh received as it is here

355
00:15:26,210 --> 00:15:24,540
in New Mexico people almost accept it as

356
00:15:28,370 --> 00:15:26,220
any other part of History here in New

357
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:28,380
Mexico so it seemed like a fitting home

358
00:15:32,329 --> 00:15:30,000
to have that here especially with the

359
00:15:33,949 --> 00:15:32,339
university being receptive but the one

360
00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:33,959
issue with the university and this is

361
00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:35,760
not a knock against UNM it's it's any

362
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:37,440
major university that that's out there

363
00:15:42,410 --> 00:15:40,260
listening to this they will agree when

364
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:42,420
they acquire a large collection they

365
00:15:47,269 --> 00:15:44,220
have to wait for the money to be raised

366
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:47,279
to pay student labor student work to

367
00:15:53,210 --> 00:15:51,120
come in catalog index box and file away

368
00:15:55,370 --> 00:15:53,220
the material before it can ever be

369
00:15:56,930 --> 00:15:55,380
accessible and I've been told depending

370
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:56,940
on the size of the collection and other

371
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:58,800
collections coming in at the time we

372
00:16:04,250 --> 00:16:00,959
could be looking at eight to ten years

373
00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:04,260
before a collection that's donated can

374
00:16:08,509 --> 00:16:06,480
be accessed by the general public for

375
00:16:11,150 --> 00:16:08,519
example if I donated everything that's

376
00:16:13,250 --> 00:16:11,160
around me today I may have to wait eight

377
00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:13,260
to ten years to see my own material even

378
00:16:16,129 --> 00:16:14,940
I couldn't access it because it

379
00:16:18,650 --> 00:16:16,139
technically would then become the

380
00:16:20,750 --> 00:16:18,660
property of the University of New Mexico

381
00:16:24,290 --> 00:16:20,760
I don't think we could wait eight to ten

382
00:16:26,329 --> 00:16:24,300
years to have my material berries jams

383
00:16:30,050 --> 00:16:26,339
Rod dikes and all of the other material

384
00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:30,060
accessed uh especially as we are now

385
00:16:33,650 --> 00:16:31,860
starting to see glimmers of Hope with

386
00:16:35,269 --> 00:16:33,660
regard to the United States government's

387
00:16:38,930 --> 00:16:35,279
interest and starting to look at the

388
00:16:41,269 --> 00:16:38,940
history with the uh draft for uh the

389
00:16:44,449 --> 00:16:41,279
National Defense authorization act for

390
00:16:45,949 --> 00:16:44,459
2023. yeah the GAO has expressed

391
00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:45,959
interest and now starting to look at the

392
00:16:50,090 --> 00:16:48,360
history so I think the timing of this

393
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:50,100
archive the timing of this organization

394
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,980
and our mission could run parallel to

395
00:16:57,410 --> 00:16:54,240
what the government is looking to do

396
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:57,420
starting in 2023. yes I have to tell you

397
00:17:01,670 --> 00:16:59,279
when I heard you were doing this that's

398
00:17:04,610 --> 00:17:01,680
the first thing I thought of was the

399
00:17:06,770 --> 00:17:04,620
Mandate that I was reading about them

400
00:17:08,929 --> 00:17:06,780
going historically all the way back to

401
00:17:11,210 --> 00:17:08,939
the 1940s to look at the material which

402
00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:11,220
is wonderful I mean I'm so glad because

403
00:17:16,970 --> 00:17:15,480
you know initially it was like 2004 or

404
00:17:19,490 --> 00:17:16,980
something like that they were going to

405
00:17:22,429 --> 00:17:19,500
go back just so far because of the data

406
00:17:24,650 --> 00:17:22,439
well and even beyond that Martin the

407
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:24,660
general dialogue if you look at the news

408
00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:26,400
stories that have that have circulated

409
00:17:30,289 --> 00:17:28,140
since the New York Times article going

410
00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:30,299
back to 2017 when when everything really

411
00:17:35,390 --> 00:17:32,820
changed with regard to the subject uh

412
00:17:38,330 --> 00:17:35,400
the the scripting if I can use that term

413
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:38,340
has been very narrowly crafted where

414
00:17:43,010 --> 00:17:40,559
they're only looking at 2004 moving

415
00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:43,020
forward and of course your audience is

416
00:17:47,150 --> 00:17:44,940
well educated on the subject and they

417
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:47,160
know this history goes back at least to

418
00:17:54,650 --> 00:17:51,600
1947 if not further and so we felt Duty

419
00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:54,660
bound to try to expand that dialogue to

420
00:17:59,630 --> 00:17:57,360
now incorporate the history in fact

421
00:18:01,730 --> 00:17:59,640
speaking of uh the United States

422
00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:01,740
government one of the individuals now

423
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:04,260
that we are officially registered in the

424
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,760
state of New Mexico is a non-profit

425
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:07,679
organization one of the people I look

426
00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:09,360
forward to meeting with after the first

427
00:18:13,370 --> 00:18:10,980
of the year is Senator Martin Heinrich

428
00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:13,380
of New Mexico who is one of the Senators

429
00:18:17,450 --> 00:18:14,880
on the Senate intelligence committee

430
00:18:20,870 --> 00:18:17,460
looking at the UFO or UAP subject

431
00:18:22,789 --> 00:18:20,880
wow hey um I I want to take a couple

432
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:22,799
side Jacks uh

433
00:18:28,370 --> 00:18:26,160
but before I do that I'd like to ask

434
00:18:31,970 --> 00:18:28,380
um since uh Barry you mentioned earlier

435
00:18:33,470 --> 00:18:31,980
that you know you scan 36 000 Pages or

436
00:18:35,870 --> 00:18:33,480
something like that

437
00:18:38,330 --> 00:18:35,880
um will there be an online presence

438
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:38,340
where people can access as well I mean

439
00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:41,280
that seems like a major under yeah we

440
00:18:45,490 --> 00:18:43,799
expect there to be many many things put

441
00:18:48,409 --> 00:18:45,500
online

442
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:48,419
an issue with Case Files for example

443
00:18:53,090 --> 00:18:50,160
which is primarily what I've been

444
00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:53,100
working on is uh concern over the

445
00:18:58,430 --> 00:18:56,220
privacy of the individuals who made the

446
00:18:59,450 --> 00:18:58,440
reporting now many of the records go

447
00:19:02,450 --> 00:18:59,460
back

448
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:02,460
decades so it's not really an issue but

449
00:19:06,650 --> 00:19:04,080
more recent years we have to be

450
00:19:09,710 --> 00:19:06,660
concerned and and

451
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:09,720
probably take out some of the names and

452
00:19:13,909 --> 00:19:11,460
personal information of some of the

453
00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:13,919
people involved in those reportings so

454
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,140
uh that that could be a lengthy process

455
00:19:22,610 --> 00:19:18,960
but I I really don't see any issue with

456
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:22,620
say something prior to the mid 60s or so

457
00:19:27,650 --> 00:19:24,480
and there are plenty of those records to

458
00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:27,660
put up so you know we'll be busy with

459
00:19:33,650 --> 00:19:29,460
those for quite some time just getting

460
00:19:36,110 --> 00:19:33,660
them up and ready for people to use and

461
00:19:38,810 --> 00:19:36,120
let's not forget the audio files this is

462
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:38,820
just one of many rare audio files which

463
00:19:45,409 --> 00:19:42,240
I've digitized uh courtesy of Rod Dyke

464
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:45,419
he had an incredible audio archive these

465
00:19:48,289 --> 00:19:46,799
are tapes from the national

466
00:19:50,810 --> 00:19:48,299
investigation committee on aerial

467
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,820
phenomena nycap these were owned by

468
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:52,799
Richard Hall after the organization

469
00:19:57,169 --> 00:19:55,200
disbanded and they eventually went to Mr

470
00:20:00,529 --> 00:19:57,179
Rod Dyke and they eventually have come

471
00:20:02,810 --> 00:20:00,539
here and I've digitized over 256 of

472
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:02,820
these audio recordings uh this one being

473
00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:06,240
one of the oldest going back to 1959 of

474
00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:10,260
that that is excellent so we're at a

475
00:20:13,370 --> 00:20:11,820
place where I want to just take a a

476
00:20:15,049 --> 00:20:13,380
couple of us like I said a couple of

477
00:20:16,850 --> 00:20:15,059
side Jags that are nothing to do with

478
00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:16,860
what we're talking about and I'm going

479
00:20:21,770 --> 00:20:17,820
to start

480
00:20:26,029 --> 00:20:21,780
um with you uh David and that is um

481
00:20:29,029 --> 00:20:26,039
uh it seems to me you you're known or

482
00:20:33,409 --> 00:20:29,039
when I first when we first talked

483
00:20:35,690 --> 00:20:33,419
um you were the triangle UFO guy okay so

484
00:20:37,669 --> 00:20:35,700
uh your book comes out you do a talk

485
00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:37,679
everywhere around the country and up

486
00:20:42,110 --> 00:20:40,020
Elsewhere on the Triangular UFOs

487
00:20:44,570 --> 00:20:42,120
everyone knows you for the triangle UFOs

488
00:20:46,430 --> 00:20:44,580
and so much more but I mean that's where

489
00:20:48,049 --> 00:20:46,440
you made a big Mark

490
00:20:52,370 --> 00:20:48,059
um in that category

491
00:20:54,409 --> 00:20:52,380
and now I know I've sent you a number of

492
00:20:57,650 --> 00:20:54,419
people that have had earlier you know

493
00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:57,660
early UFO triangle UFO sightings right

494
00:21:02,409 --> 00:21:00,000
so my question is have you ever thought

495
00:21:04,909 --> 00:21:02,419
about a volume two

496
00:21:06,529 --> 00:21:04,919
uh putting them right on the spot aren't

497
00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:06,539
I only I didn't have to work for a

498
00:21:10,669 --> 00:21:08,340
living Martin

499
00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:10,679
the rare commodity most people think is

500
00:21:15,230 --> 00:21:12,900
money in my case the rarest commodity is

501
00:21:17,630 --> 00:21:15,240
time that's just how you find time to do

502
00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:17,640
this and I I should clarify because

503
00:21:20,750 --> 00:21:19,260
Barry always brings this up he goes you

504
00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:20,760
know people just assume you do this for

505
00:21:25,669 --> 00:21:23,700
a living I work full time yeah I also

506
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:25,679
have a family my wife and two daughters

507
00:21:29,930 --> 00:21:27,840
who I promised them this morning I would

508
00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:29,940
mention them my daughters Samantha

509
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:32,760
Michaela they're they're 12 and 14. they

510
00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:35,520
have actually started prepping the nycap

511
00:21:39,409 --> 00:21:37,799
kufo Space Case Files for scanning

512
00:21:41,930 --> 00:21:39,419
because much of the work that Barry and

513
00:21:45,409 --> 00:21:41,940
Jan and I did was simply destapling old

514
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:45,419
case files and re-gluing uh newspaper

515
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:48,720
clippings on the on white sheet backing

516
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:51,600
prior to actually scanning it so they've

517
00:21:55,070 --> 00:21:52,799
actually started making a little extra

518
00:21:57,770 --> 00:21:55,080
money working in the UFO archive I mean

519
00:21:59,870 --> 00:21:57,780
what documentation for a kid not going

520
00:22:01,610 --> 00:21:59,880
to be any child child labor issues here

521
00:22:04,330 --> 00:22:01,620
is there I don't think so I don't think

522
00:22:07,310 --> 00:22:04,340
so I pay them quite well actually so

523
00:22:10,430 --> 00:22:07,320
they haven't gone on strike yet not yet

524
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:10,440
not yet that's good uh so no I so I've

525
00:22:13,730 --> 00:22:12,000
got my daughters now actually involved

526
00:22:15,890 --> 00:22:13,740
helping us get some of these files

527
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:15,900
prepped and ready to scan uh to your

528
00:22:20,029 --> 00:22:18,240
point because we Barry and I like to say

529
00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:20,039
that there's two Central pillars to this

530
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,799
new organization one is centralization

531
00:22:27,529 --> 00:22:24,960
of the historical UFO data in one

532
00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:27,539
location for the express purpose of the

533
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:29,700
second pillar which is the digitization

534
00:22:34,010 --> 00:22:31,440
of that material

535
00:22:36,430 --> 00:22:34,020
all right so uh you did that very well

536
00:22:39,289 --> 00:22:36,440
you kind of went around my question and

537
00:22:41,450 --> 00:22:39,299
no uh as part of the book I would love

538
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:41,460
to write a second book but I would have

539
00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:43,200
to wait and see if if I had some time

540
00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:45,960
afford it to me yes but uh well to

541
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:49,620
continue on in this uh have you received

542
00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:52,440
I I know you've received a lot of very

543
00:22:57,169 --> 00:22:55,500
interesting triangle UFO uh stories

544
00:23:00,110 --> 00:22:57,179
since since you've written the book you

545
00:23:03,529 --> 00:23:00,120
must have I I I I receive them on almost

546
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:03,539
a weekly basis and one of the largest uh

547
00:23:09,169 --> 00:23:06,960
uh batches of triangular UFO reports I

548
00:23:12,770 --> 00:23:09,179
received was approximately two years ago

549
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:12,780
when I did the unidentified uh series

550
00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:15,600
episode with Mr Christopher melon for

551
00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:18,120
the History Channel yeah and in the wake

552
00:23:23,090 --> 00:23:20,580
of that episode initially airing and

553
00:23:24,529 --> 00:23:23,100
then obviously subsequent earrings I

554
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:24,539
received approximately two to three

555
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:27,120
hundred reports from all over the world

556
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:29,280
uh people in Greece in Germany

557
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:32,880
Switzerland uh the UK a and many of

558
00:23:39,890 --> 00:23:36,320
these reports uh go back to the 1960s

559
00:23:42,169 --> 00:23:39,900
1970s yeah it's not a it's not a modern

560
00:23:43,850 --> 00:23:42,179
manifestation of of the phenomenon as

561
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:43,860
many people elude there have been people

562
00:23:47,330 --> 00:23:46,080
out there erroneously stating well we

563
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:47,340
didn't really get reports of these

564
00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:49,500
things until the 1970s or 80s when

565
00:23:54,590 --> 00:23:52,020
stealth technology was being developed

566
00:23:57,169 --> 00:23:54,600
and in fact my latest lecture series I

567
00:23:58,909 --> 00:23:57,179
just concluded across the country uh

568
00:24:00,649 --> 00:23:58,919
during covid you know we all talk about

569
00:24:01,850 --> 00:24:00,659
what we did during covid well I was on

570
00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:01,860
the other side of the file cabinets

571
00:24:07,250 --> 00:24:04,140
immediately to my right going through

572
00:24:10,669 --> 00:24:07,260
the nycap case files and I believe Barry

573
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:10,679
uh uh confirmed this I'm the first

574
00:24:14,029 --> 00:24:12,480
researcher to go through those historic

575
00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:14,039
case files and we're talking hundreds if

576
00:24:22,250 --> 00:24:18,720
not thousands uh going from 47 to 1977

577
00:24:25,250 --> 00:24:22,260
and looking expressly for any and all

578
00:24:29,210 --> 00:24:25,260
triangular UFO reports and I found at

579
00:24:30,649 --> 00:24:29,220
least 102 in the historic files wow and

580
00:24:33,049 --> 00:24:30,659
the thing I like to point out Martin

581
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:33,059
many people can call me today and say

582
00:24:37,610 --> 00:24:35,520
hey I saw you on TV I had a signing of

583
00:24:39,770 --> 00:24:37,620
one of those triangles back in 1965.

584
00:24:43,270 --> 00:24:39,780
it's something altogether different to

585
00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:43,280
find a contemporaneous document from

586
00:24:50,270 --> 00:24:47,840
1965. that's been on file where clearly

587
00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:50,280
there was a report filed at that time

588
00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:51,720
it's not like people are just jumping on

589
00:24:56,750 --> 00:24:54,000
the bandwagon today because this is the

590
00:24:59,210 --> 00:24:56,760
latest stylish UFO to report these are

591
00:25:03,950 --> 00:24:59,220
contemporaneous reports going back some

592
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:03,960
to the even early 1950s mid 1950s and

593
00:25:08,810 --> 00:25:06,240
what's ironic is as I told my audience

594
00:25:10,850 --> 00:25:08,820
this year and by the way on my website

595
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:10,860
the lecture in its entirety is out there

596
00:25:13,669 --> 00:25:12,480
so if any of your audience haven't seen

597
00:25:16,010 --> 00:25:13,679
it and they would like to see some of

598
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:16,020
these historic cases they can go to my

599
00:25:22,130 --> 00:25:19,200
website but it's interesting because not

600
00:25:25,130 --> 00:25:22,140
only do we have the uh distribution of

601
00:25:26,990 --> 00:25:25,140
historical cases but the characteristics

602
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:27,000
that are exemplified in those reports

603
00:25:31,250 --> 00:25:29,460
match the characteristic profile that I

604
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:31,260
created back in 2013 when my book was

605
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:34,320
published how about that wow all right

606
00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:36,960
so um we are going to what we're going

607
00:25:40,669 --> 00:25:38,880
to do here is uh I'm going to ask Barry

608
00:25:42,649 --> 00:25:40,679
another question that has nothing to do

609
00:25:44,210 --> 00:25:42,659
with what we're talking about then I'm

610
00:25:46,370 --> 00:25:44,220
going to jump over and look in the chat

611
00:25:48,649 --> 00:25:46,380
so if someone is asking a questions

612
00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:48,659
along the lines of the National UFO

613
00:25:53,450 --> 00:25:50,820
historical records Center or anything

614
00:25:56,269 --> 00:25:53,460
related to records and you put your

615
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:56,279
question in caps out and it makes sense

616
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:58,320
I will ask

617
00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:00,720
um those questions but for right now I'm

618
00:26:05,570 --> 00:26:03,240
going to ask Barry this question Barry I

619
00:26:09,710 --> 00:26:05,580
understand that you are the first person

620
00:26:13,610 --> 00:26:09,720
to write about the mj12 documents and my

621
00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:13,620
uh my question to you is uh uh well I

622
00:26:18,950 --> 00:26:16,620
should probably keep my uh opinions to

623
00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:18,960
myself of what I have thought about

624
00:26:24,350 --> 00:26:21,720
those over the years but uh I'm gonna

625
00:26:25,570 --> 00:26:24,360
ask you what's your opinion of those

626
00:26:28,669 --> 00:26:25,580
documents

627
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:28,679
I think they're all faked okay that's

628
00:26:35,330 --> 00:26:31,200
mine too put it in a nutshell

629
00:26:38,269 --> 00:26:35,340
uh yeah I'm I I'm credited with having

630
00:26:41,149 --> 00:26:38,279
written about it publicly first but uh

631
00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:41,159
it was a you know the peculiar way of

632
00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:42,720
getting there uh like we had heard

633
00:26:49,789 --> 00:26:45,840
rumors in the early 80s about uh the

634
00:26:52,430 --> 00:26:49,799
mj-12 and project Aquarius uh I I think

635
00:26:54,350 --> 00:26:52,440
the folks who were generating all that

636
00:26:57,710 --> 00:26:54,360
buzz were the ones involved with it

637
00:26:59,470 --> 00:26:57,720
later publicly but uh nevertheless the

638
00:27:03,470 --> 00:26:59,480
information was

639
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:03,480
uh leaking out so to say from uh

640
00:27:08,750 --> 00:27:06,720
different Anonymous places and we had

641
00:27:10,130 --> 00:27:08,760
noted the names and all but we couldn't

642
00:27:11,450 --> 00:27:10,140
do much with it there was very little

643
00:27:15,890 --> 00:27:11,460
information

644
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:15,900
uh in 1985 I heard from a fellow named

645
00:27:20,330 --> 00:27:17,279
Lee Graham

646
00:27:21,710 --> 00:27:20,340
who uh I I had heard of him before but I

647
00:27:24,289 --> 00:27:21,720
didn't know much about him and all and

648
00:27:28,610 --> 00:27:24,299
he uh he was very interested in filing

649
00:27:32,390 --> 00:27:28,620
foia requests on UFOs and uh at the time

650
00:27:35,810 --> 00:27:32,400
stealth aircraft uh and and he worked in

651
00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:35,820
the aviation industry too so uh he sent

652
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:38,000
me a package one day

653
00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:41,520
and uh it was a more full-blown

654
00:27:48,529 --> 00:27:44,460
explanation of mj-12 than I had seen

655
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:48,539
previously published uh with the names

656
00:27:54,649 --> 00:27:51,600
and high highly placed government

657
00:27:57,649 --> 00:27:54,659
military and governmental people and all

658
00:27:59,690 --> 00:27:57,659
uh it really wasn't clear where all that

659
00:28:03,049 --> 00:27:59,700
came from uh he was passing information

660
00:28:04,090 --> 00:28:03,059
along uh from as I later found out Bill

661
00:28:08,210 --> 00:28:04,100
Moore

662
00:28:09,649 --> 00:28:08,220
but uh nevertheless he he gave me enough

663
00:28:13,490 --> 00:28:09,659
information about it and it was

664
00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:13,500
obviously intended to be made public uh

665
00:28:19,070 --> 00:28:16,260
because he was essentially sending all

666
00:28:22,250 --> 00:28:19,080
of that to the editor of a newsletter

667
00:28:24,649 --> 00:28:22,260
so I I put together an article and and

668
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:24,659
included all that detail and it was

669
00:28:29,289 --> 00:28:27,600
published in uh my newsletter at the

670
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:29,299
time just cause

671
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:34,320
and uh I I was careful not to imply that

672
00:28:38,990 --> 00:28:36,960
I was endorsing any of this as genuine I

673
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:39,000
was simply relating information that was

674
00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:43,200
given to me and uh even with that we

675
00:28:48,950 --> 00:28:46,020
still didn't really have enough to go on

676
00:28:53,210 --> 00:28:48,960
with uh with filing foia requests and

677
00:28:56,330 --> 00:28:53,220
all and uh we had to wait uh probably a

678
00:28:58,669 --> 00:28:56,340
couple of years after that until uh some

679
00:29:03,049 --> 00:28:58,679
more substance came out on the story and

680
00:29:06,409 --> 00:29:03,059
the form of documents which um uh more

681
00:29:10,010 --> 00:29:06,419
and uh Timothy good had planned to

682
00:29:12,049 --> 00:29:10,020
release publicly uh simultaneously uh in

683
00:29:16,250 --> 00:29:12,059
the spring of 1987.

684
00:29:19,850 --> 00:29:16,260
and when those came out I I took a look

685
00:29:23,149 --> 00:29:19,860
at them and I thought no this this can't

686
00:29:25,490 --> 00:29:23,159
be I I was convinced totally within

687
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:25,500
about 10 minutes of examining them that

688
00:29:30,529 --> 00:29:28,799
there was nothing to it so I had to go

689
00:29:32,269 --> 00:29:30,539
through the motions of filing

690
00:29:34,490 --> 00:29:32,279
information requests with different

691
00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:34,500
libraries and archives and all to see if

692
00:29:39,909 --> 00:29:37,260
I could possibly track something down on

693
00:29:43,370 --> 00:29:39,919
the origins of it but

694
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:43,380
that never surfaced uh with the

695
00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:46,080
exception of one document which was at

696
00:29:50,029 --> 00:29:48,000
the National Archives and it was found

697
00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:50,039
in a very peculiar manner which made

698
00:29:54,529 --> 00:29:51,720
that even suspicious

699
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:54,539
uh but that they had released it and the

700
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:57,840
other documents were made public and I I

701
00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:00,480
wrote a report on it in the fall of uh

702
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:03,600
87 and absolutely trashed the whole

703
00:30:06,889 --> 00:30:05,520
thing I I just couldn't see how that

704
00:30:10,430 --> 00:30:06,899
could be real

705
00:30:12,769 --> 00:30:10,440
yeah there's uh I I was I was kind of

706
00:30:15,230 --> 00:30:12,779
one I had a number of conversations with

707
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:15,240
Stan Friedman who actually thought there

708
00:30:20,330 --> 00:30:18,000
was something to them and uh you know I

709
00:30:23,570 --> 00:30:20,340
really had a lot of respect for him

710
00:30:25,970 --> 00:30:23,580
um but I I just couldn't buy

711
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:25,980
um that they were they were real for

712
00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:28,080
many reasons that I do a lot of research

713
00:30:33,409 --> 00:30:30,120
on documents myself for what I do for a

714
00:30:34,909 --> 00:30:33,419
living so uh you know there was a lot of

715
00:30:36,710 --> 00:30:34,919
Telltale things that just didn't seem

716
00:30:40,130 --> 00:30:36,720
right about them uh yeah you know the

717
00:30:42,889 --> 00:30:40,140
thing with uh Stan it seemed like the

718
00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:42,899
The Narrative of the story being created

719
00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:46,500
up to that time uh was in the direction

720
00:30:52,850 --> 00:30:50,520
of uh the the information in the Roswell

721
00:30:54,889 --> 00:30:52,860
incident the book that bill Moore did

722
00:30:57,769 --> 00:30:54,899
with Charles berlitz

723
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:57,779
and that's the story that uh that Stan

724
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:00,960
was locked into uh and it just seemed

725
00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:02,640
too convenient that all the detail

726
00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:05,039
favored his version of the story there

727
00:31:09,169 --> 00:31:06,960
were other versions going around

728
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:09,179
from other quarters but but this the

729
00:31:16,669 --> 00:31:12,720
mj-12 information seemed peculiar to

730
00:31:19,130 --> 00:31:16,679
Stan and obviously he was going to

731
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:19,140
endorse it because it it agreed with his

732
00:31:25,250 --> 00:31:21,200
position and he stuck with that position

733
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:25,260
uh for many many years afterwards uh he

734
00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:28,080
never relented on it being real but it

735
00:31:34,010 --> 00:31:30,899
just it was way too convenient uh to

736
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:34,020
favor his part of that story and I I

737
00:31:39,049 --> 00:31:36,000
think it was constructed just for that

738
00:31:41,690 --> 00:31:39,059
effect to have Stan pulled in on it and

739
00:31:45,310 --> 00:31:41,700
and therefore endorse what they were

740
00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:47,930
uh Barry uh something I think most

741
00:31:51,710 --> 00:31:49,980
people don't know also is that prior to

742
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:51,720
the quote-unquote mj-12 document

743
00:31:57,049 --> 00:31:54,720
surfacing there was a novel that was

744
00:31:58,430 --> 00:31:57,059
being written and I don't elaborate on

745
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:58,440
that barrier you have such granular

746
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:01,200
knowledge on that yeah uh we had heard

747
00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:03,840
rumors at the time that that the Surya

748
00:32:11,149 --> 00:32:07,860
was based on uh a fictional account and

749
00:32:15,289 --> 00:32:11,159
uh a colleague of mine Robert Todd had

750
00:32:20,029 --> 00:32:15,299
uh managed to track down Bob Pratt who

751
00:32:22,430 --> 00:32:20,039
was uh he had previously been known as a

752
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:22,440
reporter for the National Enquirer he he

753
00:32:29,389 --> 00:32:24,480
wrote some of the more sane stories for

754
00:32:32,570 --> 00:32:29,399
The Inquirer uh but uh apparently what

755
00:32:35,810 --> 00:32:32,580
what happened was that Moore and Richard

756
00:32:37,850 --> 00:32:35,820
Dodie who's a rather notorious figure in

757
00:32:41,289 --> 00:32:37,860
the subject he had been involved in some

758
00:32:45,409 --> 00:32:41,299
fakery even prior to mj-12

759
00:32:48,169 --> 00:32:45,419
they they had teamed up to create a

760
00:32:50,090 --> 00:32:48,179
story with Dodie as the hero

761
00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:50,100
a fictional account of government

762
00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:52,740
Intrigue and UFOs and crash sauces and

763
00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:55,140
all and it was called the Aquarius

764
00:33:01,370 --> 00:32:57,600
project I think that was a final version

765
00:33:03,169 --> 00:33:01,380
of it and they had Bob Pratt uh write it

766
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:03,179
up because Pratt was an experienced

767
00:33:08,950 --> 00:33:06,960
reporter and writer so a a novel was

768
00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:08,960
created

769
00:33:16,370 --> 00:33:13,500
but at some point after that uh more and

770
00:33:18,409 --> 00:33:16,380
Dodie decided to go with the story as

771
00:33:21,889 --> 00:33:18,419
genuine instead of fictional

772
00:33:24,649 --> 00:33:21,899
at that point they had lost Pratt and

773
00:33:27,409 --> 00:33:24,659
his support he frat didn't want to do

774
00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:27,419
this as a genuine account knowing that

775
00:33:33,289 --> 00:33:30,600
it was a fiction prior to that so uh

776
00:33:36,409 --> 00:33:33,299
Pratt told Todd

777
00:33:38,269 --> 00:33:36,419
that yeah he uh he had produced a novel

778
00:33:40,370 --> 00:33:38,279
on this but he couldn't circulate it

779
00:33:42,769 --> 00:33:40,380
because essentially it was a copyrighted

780
00:33:45,889 --> 00:33:42,779
work and he had to have the approval of

781
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:45,899
the other two authors to uh make copies

782
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:48,799
available so for many many years

783
00:33:54,169 --> 00:33:52,080
we'd only heard about it and and Pratt's

784
00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:54,179
testimony was convincing because he was

785
00:34:00,350 --> 00:33:57,120
one of the authors that there was a real

786
00:34:01,789 --> 00:34:00,360
deep problem with this story in addition

787
00:34:06,289 --> 00:34:01,799
to all the other issues with the

788
00:34:09,409 --> 00:34:06,299
documents and so forth uh but uh

789
00:34:11,389 --> 00:34:09,419
the the document I understand it's out

790
00:34:15,290 --> 00:34:11,399
there on the net somewhere

791
00:34:16,270 --> 00:34:15,300
um and I I've seen it and it indeed is a

792
00:34:24,950 --> 00:34:16,280
uh

793
00:34:28,909 --> 00:34:24,960
whole Affair and I think that was the

794
00:34:31,730 --> 00:34:28,919
intent to uh present mj-12 as real so

795
00:34:35,149 --> 00:34:31,740
that these guys could somehow cash in on

796
00:34:39,409 --> 00:34:35,159
it yeah that that makes makes a lot of

797
00:34:40,669 --> 00:34:39,419
sense up I I was at an Auctioneer uh a

798
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:40,679
friend of mine's an Auctioneer in

799
00:34:46,609 --> 00:34:43,440
Massachusetts and he had an estate and

800
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:46,619
it was either a retired CIA retired FBI

801
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:49,440
can't remember but uh had come back from

802
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:51,839
Japan he was over there in Japan for

803
00:34:56,329 --> 00:34:53,760
some reason I can't remember and the

804
00:34:58,430 --> 00:34:56,339
Foot Locker was there his military it

805
00:35:00,890 --> 00:34:58,440
was like an old military Foot Locker but

806
00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:00,900
it had a mix of papers in it documents

807
00:35:10,430 --> 00:35:05,400
from uh from the 50s all the way into

808
00:35:14,270 --> 00:35:10,440
um say the 1990s and he pulls out the

809
00:35:17,390 --> 00:35:14,280
mj-12 documents from there and I

810
00:35:18,650 --> 00:35:17,400
remember contacting Stan I said stand I

811
00:35:21,770 --> 00:35:18,660
don't know what these are doing in an

812
00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:21,780
FBI you know Foot Locker but

813
00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:23,640
um but anyway uh you know after I

814
00:35:27,470 --> 00:35:24,900
thought about it for a while and looked

815
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:27,480
into that really a lot more anyone can

816
00:35:32,210 --> 00:35:29,220
have an interest in something like that

817
00:35:34,250 --> 00:35:32,220
it doesn't matter if they are ex did you

818
00:35:37,310 --> 00:35:34,260
say they were they were from an FBI

819
00:35:40,370 --> 00:35:37,320
fellow yes uh yeah I can I think I can

820
00:35:42,589 --> 00:35:40,380
explain that it the documents were in

821
00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:42,599
all likelihood sent to the FBI for

822
00:35:47,810 --> 00:35:45,839
comment and the FBI uh it issued

823
00:35:49,790 --> 00:35:47,820
statements saying that they were all a

824
00:35:52,010 --> 00:35:49,800
hoax and they had actually taken magic

825
00:35:54,290 --> 00:35:52,020
marker and written across the documents

826
00:35:57,950 --> 00:35:54,300
uh that they weren't real

827
00:36:00,109 --> 00:35:57,960
and would release those under foia and

828
00:36:01,310 --> 00:36:00,119
Martin you touched on this earlier uh

829
00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:01,320
and I know we've had private

830
00:36:05,390 --> 00:36:02,720
conversations on this over the years

831
00:36:07,609 --> 00:36:05,400
Beyond mj-12 let's remove ourselves from

832
00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:07,619
the mj-12 uh discussion for a moment

833
00:36:12,349 --> 00:36:10,500
this really gets back to a sound

834
00:36:15,109 --> 00:36:12,359
methodology when you're doing historical

835
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,119
research if you can't establish the

836
00:36:19,630 --> 00:36:17,280
provenance of a document you can't hang

837
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:19,640
your hat on it and say it's gospel truth

838
00:36:24,349 --> 00:36:22,560
and you know I really take issue with

839
00:36:27,170 --> 00:36:24,359
some of the more non-credible

840
00:36:30,349 --> 00:36:27,180
researchers out there in the field that

841
00:36:31,849 --> 00:36:30,359
disseminate these documents support the

842
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:31,859
fact that they believe that these are

843
00:36:37,130 --> 00:36:34,079
real and then use that as a springboard

844
00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:37,140
to go into these long diatribes involved

845
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:40,260
in conspiracy theories and cover-ups and

846
00:36:44,930 --> 00:36:43,200
I I believe that you know our argument

847
00:36:47,630 --> 00:36:44,940
for the reality of this subject

848
00:36:50,030 --> 00:36:47,640
especially now that NASA and the AIA and

849
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:50,040
others are getting involved we have to

850
00:36:55,130 --> 00:36:52,560
have the strongest links in the chain

851
00:36:57,950 --> 00:36:55,140
for our argument we cannot react on

852
00:36:59,870 --> 00:36:57,960
these documents that you know by all

853
00:37:02,270 --> 00:36:59,880
accounts I always say they're not even

854
00:37:03,890 --> 00:37:02,280
MJ 12 documents they're mj12 photos we

855
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:03,900
can't even analyze right paper The

856
00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:06,240
Watermark the ink yes um and that's

857
00:37:08,750 --> 00:37:07,560
really kind of underscores what we're

858
00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:08,760
trying to do with the the new

859
00:37:13,130 --> 00:37:11,220
organization we want to preserve the

860
00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:13,140
original documents we want to have those

861
00:37:18,650 --> 00:37:15,060
original Source materials so if anybody

862
00:37:22,190 --> 00:37:18,660
ever questions uh the reality or the

863
00:37:24,349 --> 00:37:22,200
validity of documents say 10 15 years

864
00:37:25,970 --> 00:37:24,359
from now they can always have recourse

865
00:37:28,430 --> 00:37:25,980
to go back to the originals in fact we

866
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:28,440
just received a message uh in the last

867
00:37:32,510 --> 00:37:29,820
week since our press release went out

868
00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:32,520
and someone asked how do you preserve

869
00:37:36,050 --> 00:37:34,680
the Integrity of documents once they're

870
00:37:38,270 --> 00:37:36,060
scanned how do you know that they're not

871
00:37:40,430 --> 00:37:38,280
digital digitally manipulated in some

872
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,440
way once they're out there on the

873
00:37:44,450 --> 00:37:42,720
internet quite simply we keep the

874
00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:44,460
originals we retain the original hard

875
00:37:49,130 --> 00:37:46,560
copy documents Dr Jalen heineck's

876
00:37:51,530 --> 00:37:49,140
original Case Files uh these are in some

877
00:37:54,670 --> 00:37:51,540
cases original documents not photo stats

878
00:37:57,890 --> 00:37:54,680
signed by the actual base Commanders

879
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:57,900
excellent excellent um and you know

880
00:38:02,270 --> 00:38:00,240
getting to what you're you know to the

881
00:38:04,730 --> 00:38:02,280
point of what you're you're saying uh

882
00:38:07,609 --> 00:38:04,740
Dave and that is that you know there's

883
00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:07,619
so many good things out there why muddy

884
00:38:13,130 --> 00:38:10,079
the waters and there's uh there's many

885
00:38:14,750 --> 00:38:13,140
cases and you know I I get into that a

886
00:38:17,210 --> 00:38:14,760
little bit on the show every once in a

887
00:38:19,849 --> 00:38:17,220
while and I I catch heck for it when I

888
00:38:21,410 --> 00:38:19,859
bring up Bob Lazar and people like that

889
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:21,420
um the emails come flying and I'll

890
00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:22,800
probably get some for just for saying

891
00:38:27,770 --> 00:38:26,160
that well it's interesting because I

892
00:38:30,410 --> 00:38:27,780
think I addressed this at the UFO

893
00:38:32,810 --> 00:38:30,420
Congress where I lectured recently

894
00:38:35,210 --> 00:38:32,820
when we have people especially on social

895
00:38:38,810 --> 00:38:35,220
media quite often the argument is coming

896
00:38:41,089 --> 00:38:38,820
from here not here they're it's an

897
00:38:43,130 --> 00:38:41,099
emotionally Laden conversation or

898
00:38:45,710 --> 00:38:43,140
emotionally Laden attack on an

899
00:38:48,170 --> 00:38:45,720
individual if you dare question any one

900
00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:48,180
document or individual in this field and

901
00:38:52,730 --> 00:38:49,740
I think we need to divorce ourselves

902
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:52,740
from emotion and use our intellect and

903
00:38:56,450 --> 00:38:54,480
try to be objective in looking at the

904
00:38:57,710 --> 00:38:56,460
subject because I'm here to tell you if

905
00:38:59,630 --> 00:38:57,720
you're shouting and you're red in the

906
00:39:02,690 --> 00:38:59,640
face and you're screaming and cussing at

907
00:39:03,950 --> 00:39:02,700
people uh you know the government's not

908
00:39:06,829 --> 00:39:03,960
going to be interested in looking at the

909
00:39:08,690 --> 00:39:06,839
subject versus you present yourself in a

910
00:39:11,329 --> 00:39:08,700
professional manner you provide

911
00:39:13,490 --> 00:39:11,339
information and informational content

912
00:39:15,470 --> 00:39:13,500
whereby you can have dialogue and

913
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:15,480
discussion uh I just don't think it

914
00:39:20,329 --> 00:39:17,700
serves any any purpose to develop a

915
00:39:22,010 --> 00:39:20,339
belief system and it's almost like you

916
00:39:24,170 --> 00:39:22,020
know challenging a Christian that that

917
00:39:26,089 --> 00:39:24,180
Jesus was a man he wasn't the Messiah I

918
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:26,099
mean it almost borders on that type of

919
00:39:31,430 --> 00:39:29,520
ideology and the fervor that people have

920
00:39:34,430 --> 00:39:31,440
with their beliefs on in this subject

921
00:39:36,349 --> 00:39:34,440
and I I just think we need to apply more

922
00:39:39,050 --> 00:39:36,359
common sense as opposed to emotion when

923
00:39:40,609 --> 00:39:39,060
we start looking at this subject and

924
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:40,619
that's again something that we're trying

925
00:39:45,109 --> 00:39:43,260
to do is simply focus on the data and

926
00:39:46,910 --> 00:39:45,119
really uh I think you could take any of

927
00:39:49,370 --> 00:39:46,920
these controversial subjects Martin you

928
00:39:53,089 --> 00:39:49,380
mentioned Bob Lazar we mentioned mj-12

929
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:53,099
let's completely imagine that mj-12 was

930
00:39:56,510 --> 00:39:54,480
never even in the discussion let's

931
00:39:59,089 --> 00:39:56,520
imagine Bob Lazar never came forward

932
00:40:02,150 --> 00:39:59,099
with his claims we still have a robust

933
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:02,160
UFO subject to study it's exactly

934
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:04,800
predicated on these things being real or

935
00:40:10,250 --> 00:40:08,160
not real so again people tend to have

936
00:40:12,829 --> 00:40:10,260
tunnel vision where well you have to

937
00:40:14,210 --> 00:40:12,839
believe Bob Lazar because it speaks to

938
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:14,220
everything that we're dealing with not

939
00:40:18,890 --> 00:40:16,800
really uh UFOs are allowed around long

940
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:18,900
before Bob Lazar UFOs were around long

941
00:40:26,270 --> 00:40:21,599
before mj-12 so I think people sometimes

942
00:40:28,250 --> 00:40:26,280
get lost in these beliefs I I agree I

943
00:40:30,829 --> 00:40:28,260
agree I'm going to pop up a couple of

944
00:40:34,250 --> 00:40:30,839
questions here uh what

945
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:34,260
is the oldest UFO document document that

946
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:36,720
you have how far back does do you go in

947
00:40:40,970 --> 00:40:39,119
that well I'll speak for myself and I'll

948
00:40:42,349 --> 00:40:40,980
let Barry speak because as of right now

949
00:40:44,030 --> 00:40:42,359
you know these collections are

950
00:40:46,849 --> 00:40:44,040
decentralized we don't have them all

951
00:40:48,829 --> 00:40:46,859
under one roof yet but that's the goal

952
00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:48,839
um as far as documents I don't know if

953
00:40:52,310 --> 00:40:50,040
we're talking government or just

954
00:40:55,790 --> 00:40:52,320
documents in general uh but I have some

955
00:40:58,750 --> 00:40:55,800
original 1897 original front page

956
00:41:01,970 --> 00:40:58,760
headlines uh

957
00:41:04,490 --> 00:41:01,980
just describing the airships of 1897.

958
00:41:06,170 --> 00:41:04,500
yeah how about that uh Barry had a

959
00:41:08,690 --> 00:41:06,180
chance to see those last October when he

960
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:08,700
was here and uh that's some of that's

961
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:10,560
probably one of the oldest items that I

962
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,960
have that that Chronicle the subject and

963
00:41:17,630 --> 00:41:14,400
Barry what about you do you have

964
00:41:20,270 --> 00:41:17,640
anything earlier yeah you know if it's a

965
00:41:22,130 --> 00:41:20,280
reference to government uh the oldest

966
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,140
evidence of government involvement in

967
00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:24,240
the United States that I've seen goes

968
00:41:32,030 --> 00:41:28,380
back to the war of 1812. where uh oddly

969
00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:32,040
enough uh there were incidents uh around

970
00:41:38,450 --> 00:41:36,660
uh uh the New London Harbor where an

971
00:41:41,150 --> 00:41:38,460
American Fleet was bottled up by the

972
00:41:43,970 --> 00:41:41,160
British and a number of times they tried

973
00:41:46,190 --> 00:41:43,980
to make runs out to sea to uh get

974
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:46,200
themselves freed from the blockade and

975
00:41:51,410 --> 00:41:49,200
and people had reported seeing strange

976
00:41:54,170 --> 00:41:51,420
blue lights hovering over the Bluffs on

977
00:41:58,010 --> 00:41:54,180
either side of the the river uh entrance

978
00:41:59,870 --> 00:41:58,020
to the uh to the ocean so uh this went

979
00:42:03,230 --> 00:41:59,880
on a number of times when the fleet

980
00:42:05,089 --> 00:42:03,240
tried to make a run and it angered the

981
00:42:07,790 --> 00:42:05,099
commander at the time Stephen Decatur

982
00:42:09,770 --> 00:42:07,800
and and he was totally convinced that

983
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:09,780
the citizens of New London were all

984
00:42:14,390 --> 00:42:12,000
Traders and they're trying to rat them

985
00:42:17,569 --> 00:42:14,400
out to the bridge British but he had

986
00:42:20,089 --> 00:42:17,579
reported these incidents to Congress and

987
00:42:21,650 --> 00:42:20,099
Congress actually launched an official

988
00:42:24,349 --> 00:42:21,660
investigation

989
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:24,359
into these lights and concluded that

990
00:42:29,450 --> 00:42:26,880
they didn't know what they were

991
00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:29,460
they were unknown first UFOs the first

992
00:42:33,710 --> 00:42:31,280
UFOs yeah

993
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:33,720
people don't know that but that's uh

994
00:42:37,970 --> 00:42:35,760
that's a fact that is really interesting

995
00:42:39,530 --> 00:42:37,980
because there you know the theory of

996
00:42:41,450 --> 00:42:39,540
time travel like they're coming back

997
00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:41,460
like the Foo Fighters and you know

998
00:42:46,430 --> 00:42:43,740
during the conflicts uh to historical

999
00:42:49,250 --> 00:42:46,440
Times Like War of 1812 will be another

1000
00:42:51,589 --> 00:42:49,260
example and I'm not saying that I'm I'm

1001
00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:51,599
thinking that's it I I don't know what

1002
00:42:56,030 --> 00:42:53,700
to think about that it's just an

1003
00:42:58,730 --> 00:42:56,040
interesting uh coincidence possibly

1004
00:43:01,609 --> 00:42:58,740
here's a document that I had found

1005
00:43:04,609 --> 00:43:01,619
someone had sent me online this is 1796

1006
00:43:07,730 --> 00:43:04,619
an English document that is really cool

1007
00:43:11,710 --> 00:43:07,740
talks about these flying ships are

1008
00:43:15,530 --> 00:43:11,720
flying ship with lights over again 1796

1009
00:43:17,210 --> 00:43:15,540
and I'll try to remember if I can uh put

1010
00:43:20,569 --> 00:43:17,220
that up in the show notes but it's a

1011
00:43:22,370 --> 00:43:20,579
really it's a great document yeah and I

1012
00:43:25,309 --> 00:43:22,380
love you know anything historical myself

1013
00:43:27,650 --> 00:43:25,319
so all this stuff is is fascinating to

1014
00:43:31,370 --> 00:43:27,660
me let me see if I can get any other uh

1015
00:43:34,190 --> 00:43:31,380
chat questions someone want to know

1016
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:34,200
about uh the first I mean you you have

1017
00:43:39,410 --> 00:43:37,260
Project Blue Book files you have J Allen

1018
00:43:41,990 --> 00:43:39,420
heinix but you also have you talked

1019
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:42,000
about Mercer Bob Mercer's correct

1020
00:43:46,250 --> 00:43:43,920
correct and I also have some of Dewey

1021
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:46,260
fornay's material uh I don't often

1022
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:48,480
mention that and for those that may not

1023
00:43:53,089 --> 00:43:50,640
uh know that name or not familiar with

1024
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:53,099
that name Dewey fournet was the Pentagon

1025
00:43:57,230 --> 00:43:55,200
liaison officer for Project Blue Book in

1026
00:43:59,450 --> 00:43:57,240
the very early years in fact he was

1027
00:44:02,990 --> 00:43:59,460
Captain Edward J repeal's direct report

1028
00:44:05,630 --> 00:44:03,000
uh in the chain of command and uh I have

1029
00:44:08,030 --> 00:44:05,640
Dewey's uh military attache case that he

1030
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:08,040
took through the Robertson panel in

1031
00:44:14,030 --> 00:44:11,760
Italy 1953. we have letters attesting to

1032
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:14,040
that fact and it has his name in Boston

1033
00:44:20,809 --> 00:44:17,280
gold on the military attache case we

1034
00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:20,819
also have some of uh Colonel Coleman who

1035
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:22,500
was the public information officer for

1036
00:44:26,329 --> 00:44:24,720
Project Blue Book in the 50s we have a

1037
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,339
couple of Colonel Coleman's hats that

1038
00:44:30,890 --> 00:44:28,800
came from his estate when he was uh with

1039
00:44:33,109 --> 00:44:30,900
Project Blue Book and again as you

1040
00:44:35,930 --> 00:44:33,119
mentioned the Lieutenant Carmen Murano

1041
00:44:37,849 --> 00:44:35,940
material which has original UFO Project

1042
00:44:40,250 --> 00:44:37,859
Blue Book case files and original

1043
00:44:42,829 --> 00:44:40,260
photographs James Fox I mentioned this

1044
00:44:44,630 --> 00:44:42,839
at the UFO Congress James Fox went to

1045
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:44,640
the National Archives to try to find

1046
00:44:51,530 --> 00:44:47,280
very clear pictures of the Socorro

1047
00:44:53,630 --> 00:44:51,540
Landing Trace location and he was rather

1048
00:44:55,849 --> 00:44:53,640
disappointed the the digital images they

1049
00:44:57,470 --> 00:44:55,859
had were very grainy and I said well you

1050
00:44:59,809 --> 00:44:57,480
know why that happened James he's like

1051
00:45:01,609 --> 00:44:59,819
no I said well when Blue Book shut down

1052
00:45:04,010 --> 00:45:01,619
the files were sent to Maxwell Air Force

1053
00:45:05,390 --> 00:45:04,020
Base where they were microfilmed and

1054
00:45:07,970 --> 00:45:05,400
then what you're looking at is a

1055
00:45:10,010 --> 00:45:07,980
digitized image off of the microfilmed

1056
00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:10,020
image and so you lose a lot of

1057
00:45:14,930 --> 00:45:12,660
resolution but in the lieutenant Carmen

1058
00:45:17,210 --> 00:45:14,940
Murano collection we have an entire set

1059
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:17,220
of original black and white glossies

1060
00:45:21,170 --> 00:45:18,800
they're just off camera here to my left

1061
00:45:23,630 --> 00:45:21,180
and they look like they were developed

1062
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:23,640
yesterday and James was ecstatic when he

1063
00:45:27,109 --> 00:45:25,680
came here and he in fact used some of

1064
00:45:29,210 --> 00:45:27,119
those images for his documentary The

1065
00:45:32,210 --> 00:45:29,220
phenomenon oh right yeah when they did

1066
00:45:34,190 --> 00:45:32,220
the segment on Socorro uh here's a

1067
00:45:36,829 --> 00:45:34,200
another one here in general terms what

1068
00:45:38,450 --> 00:45:36,839
would you constitute progress in ufology

1069
00:45:40,849 --> 00:45:38,460
oh my God that's probably one of the

1070
00:45:43,010 --> 00:45:40,859
best questions I've ever been asked that

1071
00:45:45,890 --> 00:45:43,020
is a really good question what what

1072
00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:45,900
would constitute progress

1073
00:45:51,109 --> 00:45:47,760
wow Barry do you want to kick that one

1074
00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:51,119
off or oh a few words solving the

1075
00:45:54,890 --> 00:45:52,400
puzzles

1076
00:45:57,170 --> 00:45:54,900
you can find out whatever he last

1077
00:45:59,930 --> 00:45:57,180
unknown incident was then that would be

1078
00:46:02,390 --> 00:45:59,940
real progress yeah but we need we need

1079
00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:02,400
information we need we need details on

1080
00:46:07,010 --> 00:46:04,260
those stories and some of them are just

1081
00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:07,020
probably a lost cause for filling in all

1082
00:46:13,250 --> 00:46:10,319
of those blank spaces so I I think there

1083
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:13,260
will be forever an unknown phenomenon

1084
00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:15,839
attached to this subject right I would

1085
00:46:19,309 --> 00:46:18,000
argue progress from our standpoint just

1086
00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:19,319
speaking for Barry and myself as

1087
00:46:24,710 --> 00:46:21,960
historians and historical researchers is

1088
00:46:26,990 --> 00:46:24,720
as I mentioned centralizing the data to

1089
00:46:28,730 --> 00:46:27,000
bring it all together because there may

1090
00:46:30,890 --> 00:46:28,740
be files in various collection and we've

1091
00:46:33,470 --> 00:46:30,900
talked about this a lot Barry and I on

1092
00:46:35,390 --> 00:46:33,480
the phone he may have an element in a

1093
00:46:37,490 --> 00:46:35,400
case File that ties into research that

1094
00:46:38,809 --> 00:46:37,500
I'm doing and we just don't know that

1095
00:46:41,089 --> 00:46:38,819
there's a correlation because we haven't

1096
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:41,099
brought this material together and then

1097
00:46:46,030 --> 00:46:42,960
add to that Rod Dykes collection you

1098
00:46:49,069 --> 00:46:46,040
know Rob Swire text collection and other

1099
00:46:50,510 --> 00:46:49,079
if we can bring all this together it's

1100
00:46:52,309 --> 00:46:50,520
almost like you're finally bringing all

1101
00:46:53,870 --> 00:46:52,319
the pieces of the puzzle together and we

1102
00:46:56,450 --> 00:46:53,880
can paint a picture of what we're

1103
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:56,460
dealing with but more importantly again

1104
00:47:00,650 --> 00:46:58,319
is not just simply bringing the data

1105
00:47:03,710 --> 00:47:00,660
together so we can hoard it making it

1106
00:47:06,770 --> 00:47:03,720
available to the worldwide UFO and

1107
00:47:08,569 --> 00:47:06,780
scientific Community I mentioned I did a

1108
00:47:11,150 --> 00:47:08,579
podcast about two weeks ago and I

1109
00:47:13,250 --> 00:47:11,160
mentioned that in the last several years

1110
00:47:16,010 --> 00:47:13,260
here in New Mexico Martin as I've been

1111
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:16,020
doing UFO lectures whether at libraries

1112
00:47:20,690 --> 00:47:18,000
or University at the University of New

1113
00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:20,700
Mexico inevitably I would have one or

1114
00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:22,260
two people come up that were in the

1115
00:47:25,550 --> 00:47:23,760
audience and they come up to me

1116
00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:25,560
afterwards and say I just want to let

1117
00:47:27,950 --> 00:47:26,640
you know I'm very interested in the

1118
00:47:30,410 --> 00:47:27,960
research you're doing and the UFO

1119
00:47:32,630 --> 00:47:30,420
subject by the way I work at Los Alamos

1120
00:47:35,089 --> 00:47:32,640
National Laboratories and I've had other

1121
00:47:38,750 --> 00:47:35,099
people tell me they work at Sandia as if

1122
00:47:40,550 --> 00:47:38,760
to to verify that statement two days

1123
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:40,560
after I did the podcast I received an

1124
00:47:43,130 --> 00:47:41,700
email from a gentleman here in

1125
00:47:44,210 --> 00:47:43,140
Albuquerque and he said David I just

1126
00:47:46,670 --> 00:47:44,220
want to let you know I heard your

1127
00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:46,680
podcast I'm one of those in individuals

1128
00:47:51,470 --> 00:47:48,960
I work at Sandia although I plan to

1129
00:47:52,670 --> 00:47:51,480
retire next year please keep me apprised

1130
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:52,680
of the work you're doing with the new

1131
00:47:55,250 --> 00:47:54,180
organization because I would love to

1132
00:47:56,750 --> 00:47:55,260
assist you

1133
00:48:00,170 --> 00:47:56,760
oh my goodness

1134
00:48:02,150 --> 00:48:00,180
isn't that something else huh uh

1135
00:48:04,970 --> 00:48:02,160
here's Andy has this question how will

1136
00:48:06,829 --> 00:48:04,980
the UFO records be searchable and you

1137
00:48:09,650 --> 00:48:06,839
know maybe I'll elaborate a little more

1138
00:48:11,930 --> 00:48:09,660
on that are these going to be in some

1139
00:48:15,050 --> 00:48:11,940
type of order or would that be keyword

1140
00:48:17,450 --> 00:48:15,060
searches when once this these digital

1141
00:48:19,550 --> 00:48:17,460
files get up there right we haven't

1142
00:48:20,690 --> 00:48:19,560
fully solidified although Barry and I

1143
00:48:22,550 --> 00:48:20,700
have talked about this a little bit

1144
00:48:25,069 --> 00:48:22,560
already we haven't solidified the

1145
00:48:27,730 --> 00:48:25,079
overall structure of the files both

1146
00:48:30,109 --> 00:48:27,740
physically as well as digitally online

1147
00:48:32,990 --> 00:48:30,119
but we do have some individuals who have

1148
00:48:35,329 --> 00:48:33,000
reached out to us who actually work uh

1149
00:48:37,490 --> 00:48:35,339
in records management and in library

1150
00:48:38,870 --> 00:48:37,500
curation a number of people have reached

1151
00:48:40,370 --> 00:48:38,880
out with different skill sets Martin

1152
00:48:42,410 --> 00:48:40,380
since our press release went out which

1153
00:48:44,329 --> 00:48:42,420
is exciting and we want to be able to

1154
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:44,339
bring in this knowledge and this wisdom

1155
00:48:48,770 --> 00:48:46,800
from professionals that are used to

1156
00:48:51,890 --> 00:48:48,780
actually cataloging large amounts of

1157
00:48:53,450 --> 00:48:51,900
information so I I can just tell you

1158
00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:53,460
right now I will probably be deferring

1159
00:48:57,410 --> 00:48:54,900
to The Experts the people that do this

1160
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,420
for a living to say what do you envision

1161
00:49:01,309 --> 00:48:59,280
what is the best way you see us being

1162
00:49:02,809 --> 00:49:01,319
able to do this and Barry do you have

1163
00:49:05,390 --> 00:49:02,819
any thoughts on that oh yeah well right

1164
00:49:07,430 --> 00:49:05,400
now the I think the primary sort for the

1165
00:49:10,970 --> 00:49:07,440
uh the case work that we have is

1166
00:49:13,250 --> 00:49:10,980
chronological for cases right but then

1167
00:49:16,250 --> 00:49:13,260
after that once they're scanned you can

1168
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:16,260
do just about anything uh another trick

1169
00:49:22,970 --> 00:49:19,440
is is getting the most yard uh there's a

1170
00:49:24,950 --> 00:49:22,980
wide variety of styles and forms that we

1171
00:49:27,710 --> 00:49:24,960
have to deal with the handwritten

1172
00:49:32,270 --> 00:49:27,720
letters things written even in crayon

1173
00:49:35,510 --> 00:49:32,280
that uh to create an OCR record is a bit

1174
00:49:38,089 --> 00:49:35,520
difficult so that we we need uh outside

1175
00:49:41,030 --> 00:49:38,099
help on that to determine whether all of

1176
00:49:43,309 --> 00:49:41,040
that can be done in an easy fashion and

1177
00:49:44,990 --> 00:49:43,319
related to that Martin you know we've

1178
00:49:46,849 --> 00:49:45,000
had a lot of people say well you guys

1179
00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:46,859
need to put this into a database and I'm

1180
00:49:51,890 --> 00:49:49,260
like tell me something I don't know but

1181
00:49:54,050 --> 00:49:51,900
it's incremental steps first we need to

1182
00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:54,060
bring it all together then we need to

1183
00:49:59,569 --> 00:49:56,880
digitize it once it's digital we can

1184
00:50:01,130 --> 00:49:59,579
share that worldwide and we do know a

1185
00:50:03,170 --> 00:50:01,140
number of people that are working on

1186
00:50:05,450 --> 00:50:03,180
database systems currently that have

1187
00:50:07,370 --> 00:50:05,460
expressed interest in obtaining that

1188
00:50:09,710 --> 00:50:07,380
information once it is digitized but

1189
00:50:11,930 --> 00:50:09,720
it's a systematic step-by-step approach

1190
00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:11,940
centralize it digitize it and then make

1191
00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:13,680
it available for those that are creating

1192
00:50:17,329 --> 00:50:15,599
these databases to then incorporate it

1193
00:50:19,250 --> 00:50:17,339
into the database

1194
00:50:21,770 --> 00:50:19,260
well here's a question that came up that

1195
00:50:24,530 --> 00:50:21,780
I uh I have to put in front of some

1196
00:50:27,770 --> 00:50:24,540
other ones because I want to know what

1197
00:50:31,250 --> 00:50:27,780
you think too what do you and Barry

1198
00:50:33,650 --> 00:50:31,260
think of the Admiral Wilson documents

1199
00:50:35,450 --> 00:50:33,660
well I'll just Echo what I said earlier

1200
00:50:37,309 --> 00:50:35,460
I think it all comes down to provenance

1201
00:50:39,230 --> 00:50:37,319
uh you know these things that just kind

1202
00:50:41,690 --> 00:50:39,240
of appear on the scene I just don't take

1203
00:50:44,270 --> 00:50:41,700
it face value am I saying that they're

1204
00:50:46,370 --> 00:50:44,280
not legitimate no I I don't know if

1205
00:50:48,230 --> 00:50:46,380
they're legitimate or not but all I can

1206
00:50:49,970 --> 00:50:48,240
say is my default position on any

1207
00:50:51,710 --> 00:50:49,980
documents that just suddenly surface

1208
00:50:54,290 --> 00:50:51,720
without going through official channels

1209
00:50:57,650 --> 00:50:54,300
I'm very suspect what do you think about

1210
00:50:59,450 --> 00:50:57,660
that Barry uh I'm a bit bothered by the

1211
00:51:02,150 --> 00:50:59,460
way the story has evolved the

1212
00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:02,160
implication is that Eric Davis did an

1213
00:51:08,270 --> 00:51:05,760
interview with Admiral uh uh Wilson and

1214
00:51:12,589 --> 00:51:08,280
and that's what's in the the paperwork

1215
00:51:15,230 --> 00:51:12,599
but uh Wilson uh has denied giving the

1216
00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:15,240
interview and Davis won't even comment

1217
00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:17,760
yeah do you think he likes the Limelight

1218
00:51:21,230 --> 00:51:19,920
and what I've been wondering why Davis

1219
00:51:23,089 --> 00:51:21,240
won't comment

1220
00:51:25,849 --> 00:51:23,099
now do you think he's liking this whole

1221
00:51:28,450 --> 00:51:25,859
thing and I I I can't really speculate

1222
00:51:31,130 --> 00:51:28,460
on that I mean he uh

1223
00:51:33,890 --> 00:51:31,140
either he's hiding something that never

1224
00:51:36,829 --> 00:51:33,900
happened or there are higher issues

1225
00:51:39,710 --> 00:51:36,839
involved that he doesn't want to get

1226
00:51:42,530 --> 00:51:39,720
himself tangled up with uh in terms of

1227
00:51:46,910 --> 00:51:42,540
dealing with government official I can't

1228
00:51:49,549 --> 00:51:46,920
say but but at least uh say you know

1229
00:51:51,410 --> 00:51:49,559
that that I did the interview and defend

1230
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:51,420
yourself he's not doing that that

1231
00:51:55,490 --> 00:51:54,000
bothersome yeah I appreciate Jeffrey's

1232
00:51:57,710 --> 00:51:55,500
question though Martin because obviously

1233
00:52:01,250 --> 00:51:57,720
that's a very topical subject right now

1234
00:52:03,230 --> 00:52:01,260
in the field and again I think time may

1235
00:52:05,329 --> 00:52:03,240
tell you know let's just see how this

1236
00:52:08,930 --> 00:52:05,339
story evolves and where it goes

1237
00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:08,940
right um so we have to jump off of uh

1238
00:52:12,349 --> 00:52:10,319
kgra

1239
00:52:15,230 --> 00:52:12,359
so we're going to say good night to them

1240
00:52:17,210 --> 00:52:15,240
over Bill thank you so much uh for your

1241
00:52:18,890 --> 00:52:17,220
work over there at kgra Radio I'm going

1242
00:52:21,109 --> 00:52:18,900
to hang out just a little bit more so I

1243
00:52:23,089 --> 00:52:21,119
can get these uh questions through these

1244
00:52:25,309 --> 00:52:23,099
questions so good night everyone over

1245
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:25,319
there at kgra Radio

1246
00:52:32,510 --> 00:52:27,839
and we'll be back next week with

1247
00:52:35,329 --> 00:52:32,520
uh John Ramirez xcia

1248
00:52:36,829 --> 00:52:35,339
um which will be an interesting show all

1249
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:36,839
right so here's some other questions

1250
00:52:40,130 --> 00:52:38,160
we're going to just get to these

1251
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:40,140
questions here and then we'll wrap it up

1252
00:52:44,690 --> 00:52:42,000
after we get through them have your

1253
00:52:47,150 --> 00:52:44,700
guests noticed the that famous Mass

1254
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:47,160
witness events tend to be missing from

1255
00:52:51,770 --> 00:52:49,440
archive databases for example the

1256
00:52:55,670 --> 00:52:51,780
Washington overflights it was 1952

1257
00:52:58,309 --> 00:52:55,680
wasn't it in 1952 yeah two consecutive

1258
00:52:59,809 --> 00:52:58,319
weekends uh I I'm not sure if I

1259
00:53:01,609 --> 00:52:59,819
understand the question I mean certainly

1260
00:53:04,490 --> 00:53:01,619
we have a lot of data in our in our

1261
00:53:06,829 --> 00:53:04,500
databases on the 52 wave and I have many

1262
00:53:10,190 --> 00:53:06,839
of the original uh documents including

1263
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:10,200
the CAA report on uh the incident as

1264
00:53:13,849 --> 00:53:11,520
well as uh some of the original

1265
00:53:15,890 --> 00:53:13,859
government documents as well what about

1266
00:53:17,630 --> 00:53:15,900
other math sightings there does that

1267
00:53:20,329 --> 00:53:17,640
does it doesn't seem to matter whether

1268
00:53:22,130 --> 00:53:20,339
it's a math sighting or not right well

1269
00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:22,140
again I don't know what databases he

1270
00:53:26,630 --> 00:53:24,000
would be referring to so I unfortunately

1271
00:53:27,770 --> 00:53:26,640
I'm not quite sure you know what he's if

1272
00:53:29,870 --> 00:53:27,780
he's referencing something specific

1273
00:53:32,270 --> 00:53:29,880
typically in that regard I will say that

1274
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:32,280
there have been Mass sightings that have

1275
00:53:36,170 --> 00:53:35,040
gone virtually unnoticed and one that I

1276
00:53:38,030 --> 00:53:36,180
think I've talked about on previous

1277
00:53:40,730 --> 00:53:38,040
shows Martin is my research into the

1278
00:53:42,410 --> 00:53:40,740
1950 Farmington Flying Saucer Armada oh

1279
00:53:44,270 --> 00:53:42,420
yeah I would argue that this is one of

1280
00:53:46,849 --> 00:53:44,280
the most significant UFO sightings that

1281
00:53:48,410 --> 00:53:46,859
we have on record yet when I had

1282
00:53:50,510 --> 00:53:48,420
lectured across the country a number of

1283
00:53:51,950 --> 00:53:50,520
years back the vast majority of people

1284
00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:51,960
had never even heard of this incident

1285
00:53:56,630 --> 00:53:54,000
and I'm not just saying that Dr James

1286
00:53:58,609 --> 00:53:56,640
McDonald in statements uh acknowledged

1287
00:54:01,370 --> 00:53:58,619
that in some of his audio recordings

1288
00:54:02,990 --> 00:54:01,380
with Witnesses he he feels that it was a

1289
00:54:06,530 --> 00:54:03,000
very significant event that was

1290
00:54:09,109 --> 00:54:06,540
underreported I I think we have a pretty

1291
00:54:12,349 --> 00:54:09,119
good handle on most of the the known

1292
00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:12,359
Mass sighting events Washington DC there

1293
00:54:17,329 --> 00:54:14,700
may be some individual documents that

1294
00:54:19,970 --> 00:54:17,339
are missing from the Blue Book record uh

1295
00:54:22,490 --> 00:54:19,980
I'm pretty sure that's the case but we

1296
00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:22,500
we have a large amount of information on

1297
00:54:29,809 --> 00:54:25,920
that uh the same with other Mass events

1298
00:54:33,950 --> 00:54:29,819
but there they were as Dave said some

1299
00:54:35,870 --> 00:54:33,960
incidents that happened for a number of

1300
00:54:38,510 --> 00:54:35,880
sightings that we weren't aware of but

1301
00:54:40,309 --> 00:54:38,520
they were buried in local newspapers so

1302
00:54:43,730 --> 00:54:40,319
that we didn't have access to them until

1303
00:54:45,650 --> 00:54:43,740
we started looking uh with technology

1304
00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:45,660
the way it is now we can look at

1305
00:54:50,390 --> 00:54:47,940
thousands of newspaper titles and

1306
00:54:52,790 --> 00:54:50,400
research all of those sources that we

1307
00:54:55,849 --> 00:54:52,800
could never have access to before

1308
00:54:58,970 --> 00:54:55,859
yeah no it is so much easier to do

1309
00:55:01,370 --> 00:54:58,980
things today than the old way uh here's

1310
00:55:04,309 --> 00:55:01,380
a interesting question do you have any

1311
00:55:06,650 --> 00:55:04,319
app profiles from the lorenzins Gerald

1312
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:06,660
thank you for that question I really

1313
00:55:10,730 --> 00:55:09,359
appreciate that uh again I think Barry

1314
00:55:11,809 --> 00:55:10,740
and I were just talking about this this

1315
00:55:14,510 --> 00:55:11,819
morning

1316
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:14,520
um we are hoping to eventually acquire

1317
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:16,319
the app profiles I do know someone

1318
00:55:21,230 --> 00:55:18,240
that's in touch directly with the

1319
00:55:23,329 --> 00:55:21,240
individual who has them and we do hope

1320
00:55:25,069 --> 00:55:23,339
that over time that they would find a

1321
00:55:28,490 --> 00:55:25,079
home here at the National UFO historical

1322
00:55:31,069 --> 00:55:28,500
records Center simply because we already

1323
00:55:33,710 --> 00:55:31,079
have the CSI New York files one of the

1324
00:55:36,109 --> 00:55:33,720
earliest civilian UFO groups we have the

1325
00:55:38,450 --> 00:55:36,119
nycap UFO case File collection we have

1326
00:55:41,569 --> 00:55:38,460
the center for UFO studies case File

1327
00:55:43,790 --> 00:55:41,579
collection mufon has their existing case

1328
00:55:47,150 --> 00:55:43,800
File collection the one we're missing

1329
00:55:48,890 --> 00:55:47,160
are the app profiles and just so your

1330
00:55:51,530 --> 00:55:48,900
audience understands if they're not

1331
00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:51,540
familiar with the app profiles uh the

1332
00:55:57,410 --> 00:55:55,200
report is that they consists of 18 four

1333
00:56:01,069 --> 00:55:57,420
and five drawer file cabinets filled

1334
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:01,079
with UFO case files from the 1950s all

1335
00:56:06,049 --> 00:56:03,119
the way up to the 1980s

1336
00:56:08,930 --> 00:56:06,059
yeah wow that would be great if you get

1337
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:08,940
those uh this question's from Moonbeam

1338
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:11,280
what a name like the name question has

1339
00:56:17,930 --> 00:56:12,960
there ever been any reports of gunmetal

1340
00:56:19,549 --> 00:56:17,940
gray rectangular shaped craft yes I've

1341
00:56:21,470 --> 00:56:19,559
actually stumbled across some of those

1342
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:21,480
reports in researching the Triangular

1343
00:56:28,490 --> 00:56:24,960
UFO phenomenon and in fact in my book I

1344
00:56:31,309 --> 00:56:28,500
reference uh two cases one from New York

1345
00:56:33,049 --> 00:56:31,319
in the 1980s and another one during the

1346
00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:33,059
the first night of the famous Belgian

1347
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:36,720
wave November 29 1989 uh Albert kreutz

1348
00:56:41,690 --> 00:56:39,119
was a dispatcher in upon the village of

1349
00:56:44,089 --> 00:56:41,700
upon and he heard the the police

1350
00:56:47,390 --> 00:56:44,099
officers the jean-darms reporting these

1351
00:56:49,309 --> 00:56:47,400
triangular UFOs at one point in a break

1352
00:56:51,410 --> 00:56:49,319
during the radio dialogue he stepped out

1353
00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:51,420
on the Terrace and looked out at the

1354
00:56:56,750 --> 00:56:54,480
night sky and he didn't expect to see a

1355
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:56,760
triangle uh because he he thought that

1356
00:57:00,670 --> 00:56:58,559
these guys were joking but to his

1357
00:57:03,049 --> 00:57:00,680
surprise he sees a rectangular

1358
00:57:06,349 --> 00:57:03,059
box-shaped object floating by silently

1359
00:57:07,970 --> 00:57:06,359
with a white light in each corner and

1360
00:57:10,010 --> 00:57:07,980
I've sent I found several other

1361
00:57:12,049 --> 00:57:10,020
historical reports having gone through

1362
00:57:14,270 --> 00:57:12,059
recently the The nightcap case File

1363
00:57:16,910 --> 00:57:14,280
collection uh there are a number of

1364
00:57:19,910 --> 00:57:16,920
these shoebox or rectangular shaped UFO

1365
00:57:21,650 --> 00:57:19,920
reports that are in in the Case Files

1366
00:57:25,309 --> 00:57:21,660
going back decades

1367
00:57:27,710 --> 00:57:25,319
uh yes A friend of mine in college saw

1368
00:57:29,510 --> 00:57:27,720
what looked like a shoebox with lights

1369
00:57:31,490 --> 00:57:29,520
on each corner it's the best description

1370
00:57:33,290 --> 00:57:31,500
I can give it like like a big box

1371
00:57:35,870 --> 00:57:33,300
floating in the sky that's kind of what

1372
00:57:38,030 --> 00:57:35,880
he described it as here's a uh a great

1373
00:57:41,450 --> 00:57:38,040
question I think what about documents

1374
00:57:45,290 --> 00:57:41,460
Etc by contactees yes uh great question

1375
00:57:48,710 --> 00:57:45,300
thanks Ray uh we actually uh I had met

1376
00:57:50,089 --> 00:57:48,720
with an individual in Phoenix and when

1377
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:50,099
we made the preliminary announcement

1378
00:57:53,870 --> 00:57:51,839
about the new organization a person came

1379
00:57:56,030 --> 00:57:53,880
up to me and said uh I just want to let

1380
00:57:57,829 --> 00:57:56,040
you know that you know my mother really

1381
00:58:00,589 --> 00:57:57,839
followed the contact e movement in the

1382
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:00,599
1950s I have some of Georgia damsky's

1383
00:58:05,089 --> 00:58:03,359
original newsletters and photos would

1384
00:58:06,730 --> 00:58:05,099
you like me to to send those would you

1385
00:58:09,950 --> 00:58:06,740
guys be interested and I said absolutely

1386
00:58:11,870 --> 00:58:09,960
this is the thing uh it doesn't matter

1387
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:11,880
what my personal interest is in the

1388
00:58:16,609 --> 00:58:13,680
subject or Barry Greenwoods or any of

1389
00:58:19,010 --> 00:58:16,619
our other board members uh we never know

1390
00:58:21,950 --> 00:58:19,020
what someone is interested in or what

1391
00:58:24,349 --> 00:58:21,960
someone is researching when I obtain in

1392
00:58:25,849 --> 00:58:24,359
the Lou Farish collection the contactee

1393
00:58:27,470 --> 00:58:25,859
movement it's not something that I've

1394
00:58:29,809 --> 00:58:27,480
really focused on heavily from a

1395
00:58:31,730 --> 00:58:29,819
research standpoint but when I inherited

1396
00:58:34,190 --> 00:58:31,740
Lou ferris's collection Lou was

1397
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:34,200
fascinated by the contact D movement and

1398
00:58:39,530 --> 00:58:36,480
I have a vast Archive of original

1399
00:58:41,569 --> 00:58:39,540
contact e literature much of which uh

1400
00:58:43,849 --> 00:58:41,579
autographed by the men and women who who

1401
00:58:46,730 --> 00:58:43,859
authored the the various periodicals and

1402
00:58:49,609 --> 00:58:46,740
books and so that in conjunction with

1403
00:58:51,530 --> 00:58:49,619
some of Wendell Stevens material uh yes

1404
00:58:54,589 --> 00:58:51,540
we do have quite a bit on on the

1405
00:58:57,829 --> 00:58:54,599
contactees yeah it's important to stress

1406
00:59:00,410 --> 00:58:57,839
that this archive will appeal to all

1407
00:59:03,289 --> 00:59:00,420
parts of the spectrum on the subject not

1408
00:59:05,569 --> 00:59:03,299
just one side or another everything will

1409
00:59:08,089 --> 00:59:05,579
be included we want contact e-literary

1410
00:59:11,770 --> 00:59:08,099
we want skeptical literature anything

1411
00:59:14,990 --> 00:59:11,780
that'll Enlighten us to uh what the

1412
00:59:17,089 --> 00:59:15,000
phenomenon is all about and we'll make

1413
00:59:20,990 --> 00:59:17,099
room for it all absolutely excellent

1414
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:21,000
excellent here's a uh a question that I

1415
00:59:24,829 --> 00:59:23,520
mean well John wanted to know have

1416
00:59:27,410 --> 00:59:24,839
private groups governments or

1417
00:59:29,390 --> 00:59:27,420
individuals bought UFO reports and

1418
00:59:31,870 --> 00:59:29,400
removed them from Public Access but I'll

1419
00:59:35,690 --> 00:59:31,880
just I'll add to that question

1420
00:59:39,230 --> 00:59:35,700
are either one of you aware of anyone

1421
00:59:42,530 --> 00:59:39,240
attempting to remove information for any

1422
00:59:45,410 --> 00:59:42,540
particular reason uh yes uh in the early

1423
00:59:48,250 --> 00:59:45,420
years of uh Project Blue Book or then

1424
00:59:50,809 --> 00:59:48,260
project sign project Grudge

1425
00:59:52,789 --> 00:59:50,819
the eventual head of blue book Edward

1426
00:59:54,890 --> 00:59:52,799
rupelt said that there was a lot of

1427
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:54,900
filching of files

1428
01:00:00,049 --> 00:59:57,359
from the early years he felt it was

1429
01:00:02,150 --> 01:00:00,059
souvenir hunting but uh you know there

1430
01:00:05,089 --> 01:00:02,160
may have been other reasons for it but

1431
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:05,099
it definitely files have disappeared uh

1432
01:00:10,849 --> 01:00:07,440
for one reason or another

1433
01:00:13,849 --> 01:00:10,859
wow isn't that yeah I could see where

1434
01:00:15,230 --> 01:00:13,859
people would want to take sort of like a

1435
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:15,240
souvenir type

1436
01:00:20,450 --> 01:00:18,240
type of thing especially if it came to

1437
01:00:22,089 --> 01:00:20,460
uh images you know I mean that that

1438
01:00:25,130 --> 01:00:22,099
would seem like that would be the most

1439
01:00:28,910 --> 01:00:25,140
uh spectacular thing that someone may

1440
01:00:31,069 --> 01:00:28,920
want to remove for their own

1441
01:00:33,710 --> 01:00:31,079
yeah it's hard it's hard to say exactly

1442
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:33,720
what might be missing uh whether they

1443
01:00:39,890 --> 01:00:36,240
were just ordinary reports or really hot

1444
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:39,900
ones uh there's a fair number of items

1445
01:00:44,809 --> 01:00:41,760
in Project Blue Book that are listed as

1446
01:00:47,690 --> 01:00:44,819
case missing but uh we had found later

1447
01:00:49,490 --> 01:00:47,700
that uh with a little effort in looking

1448
01:00:51,530 --> 01:00:49,500
into other parts of the National

1449
01:00:55,010 --> 01:00:51,540
Archives we did locate some of those

1450
01:00:57,049 --> 01:00:55,020
case missing uh incidents uh in in

1451
01:00:59,569 --> 01:00:57,059
especially in the files of the 460

1452
01:01:01,970 --> 01:00:59,579
second air intelligence service Squadron

1453
01:01:04,730 --> 01:01:01,980
which was sort of the buffer zone

1454
01:01:07,789 --> 01:01:04,740
between the reporting person and Project

1455
01:01:09,950 --> 01:01:07,799
Blue Book they were individuals at

1456
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:09,960
various air bases who when something

1457
01:01:15,170 --> 01:01:12,720
would happen in that area they would

1458
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:15,180
receive the report and decide whether it

1459
01:01:21,230 --> 01:01:17,760
was worth a follow-up or not and often

1460
01:01:23,210 --> 01:01:21,240
they would print up a a report and take

1461
01:01:25,490 --> 01:01:23,220
information and have the witness sign it

1462
01:01:27,410 --> 01:01:25,500
and all sometimes they were forwarded to

1463
01:01:29,809 --> 01:01:27,420
Project Blue Book and sometimes they

1464
01:01:33,170 --> 01:01:29,819
weren't for one reason or another again

1465
01:01:35,510 --> 01:01:33,180
you're tired to tell but we did find

1466
01:01:37,549 --> 01:01:35,520
some of the missing incidents in Blue

1467
01:01:39,829 --> 01:01:37,559
Book through those memes and we've

1468
01:01:42,170 --> 01:01:39,839
cataloged them that's great that you

1469
01:01:44,150 --> 01:01:42,180
recovered recovered that is video

1470
01:01:46,970 --> 01:01:44,160
evidence always admissible well I'd like

1471
01:01:49,549 --> 01:01:46,980
to add a little to that too do you have

1472
01:01:52,549 --> 01:01:49,559
video data

1473
01:01:55,490 --> 01:01:52,559
we have lots of videos but admittedly

1474
01:01:58,089 --> 01:01:55,500
most of those are publicly broadcasted

1475
01:02:02,089 --> 01:01:58,099
programs I I don't think we have a rich

1476
01:02:03,530 --> 01:02:02,099
library of actual UFO footage probably

1477
01:02:05,150 --> 01:02:03,540
the best source for that would be

1478
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,160
YouTube

1479
01:02:09,170 --> 01:02:07,440
um we do have I think a few I Barry we

1480
01:02:11,809 --> 01:02:09,180
had that little clip from Brazil

1481
01:02:13,910 --> 01:02:11,819
remember from the 1950s yeah we also

1482
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:13,920
have we also have some materials that

1483
01:02:19,250 --> 01:02:16,319
were submitted to Blue Book when they

1484
01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:19,260
were in existence some actual film 16 8

1485
01:02:24,829 --> 01:02:22,200
millimeter and slide photography and all

1486
01:02:26,089 --> 01:02:24,839
but uh yeah I mean we do have some

1487
01:02:29,089 --> 01:02:26,099
things that could be studied

1488
01:02:33,710 --> 01:02:31,849
interesting uh this I'm trying to

1489
01:02:36,770 --> 01:02:33,720
understand exactly this question here

1490
01:02:40,130 --> 01:02:36,780
incidents uh verified by multiple

1491
01:02:42,710 --> 01:02:40,140
platforms and people should these not be

1492
01:02:45,410 --> 01:02:42,720
research priorities I.E the Nimitz

1493
01:02:47,150 --> 01:02:45,420
absolutely yeah yeah they are I mean uh

1494
01:02:50,030 --> 01:02:47,160
you know been a lot of research done on

1495
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:50,040
the the Nimitz incident uh uh over the

1496
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:51,359
years and there were there were others

1497
01:02:56,030 --> 01:02:54,000
that have been reported since then uh I

1498
01:02:58,130 --> 01:02:56,040
wish we knew about them all but the

1499
01:02:59,990 --> 01:02:58,140
government won't let us uh see what they

1500
01:03:03,109 --> 01:03:00,000
are they the reports are still

1501
01:03:04,849 --> 01:03:03,119
classified yeah but yeah there's been a

1502
01:03:06,890 --> 01:03:04,859
great deal of focus in the last five

1503
01:03:08,690 --> 01:03:06,900
years or so yeah I think seu did a

1504
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:08,700
pretty good job trying to investigate it

1505
01:03:13,970 --> 01:03:11,280
but admittedly to Barry's Point uh and

1506
01:03:17,390 --> 01:03:13,980
and to Bran's question uh we don't have

1507
01:03:20,390 --> 01:03:17,400
access to the raw data we really have

1508
01:03:22,849 --> 01:03:20,400
videos and eyewitness testimony but as

1509
01:03:25,870 --> 01:03:22,859
I've mentioned uh that was released in

1510
01:03:29,510 --> 01:03:25,880
December of 2017 and here we are now in

1511
01:03:31,010 --> 01:03:29,520
almost December of 2022 we still have

1512
01:03:33,170 --> 01:03:31,020
yet to have one official page of

1513
01:03:36,049 --> 01:03:33,180
document documentation or analysis

1514
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:36,059
relating to those events

1515
01:03:41,569 --> 01:03:39,119
wow that's so we need that you know that

1516
01:03:43,849 --> 01:03:41,579
before we can really do a deep dive the

1517
01:03:45,010 --> 01:03:43,859
task force report last year indicated

1518
01:03:51,170 --> 01:03:45,020
that

1519
01:03:54,950 --> 01:03:51,180
file were unexplained

1520
01:03:57,410 --> 01:03:54,960
uh I think we only know uh maybe a bit

1521
01:03:59,450 --> 01:03:57,420
about a couple of the sightings the rest

1522
01:04:02,150 --> 01:03:59,460
of them are completely unknown and now

1523
01:04:04,849 --> 01:04:02,160
we're expecting a new report and

1524
01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:04,859
according to some leaks which I don't

1525
01:04:11,089 --> 01:04:07,920
like to quote but that's all we have

1526
01:04:12,410 --> 01:04:11,099
right now that half of the reports were

1527
01:04:15,349 --> 01:04:12,420
unexplained

1528
01:04:17,210 --> 01:04:15,359
so uh there's another group apparently

1529
01:04:19,609 --> 01:04:17,220
that's going to be added to the unknown

1530
01:04:21,829 --> 01:04:19,619
category but we have no access to them

1531
01:04:23,030 --> 01:04:21,839
but but if I made just a Brand's

1532
01:04:25,609 --> 01:04:23,040
question I think it's a great question

1533
01:04:27,890 --> 01:04:25,619
and he raises beyond the USS Nimitz

1534
01:04:29,450 --> 01:04:27,900
incident uh looking back historically

1535
01:04:32,450 --> 01:04:29,460
through the blue book case files and

1536
01:04:34,490 --> 01:04:32,460
other military files that we have uh I

1537
01:04:37,549 --> 01:04:34,500
completely agree with with bran in the

1538
01:04:40,309 --> 01:04:37,559
sense that uh it's one thing to have a

1539
01:04:43,250 --> 01:04:40,319
subjective report namely eyewitness

1540
01:04:45,589 --> 01:04:43,260
testimony it's much better even if it's

1541
01:04:47,569 --> 01:04:45,599
military or Pilots it's much better when

1542
01:04:50,450 --> 01:04:47,579
you have objective data in the form of

1543
01:04:51,890 --> 01:04:50,460
radar and sensing arrays that are

1544
01:04:54,950 --> 01:04:51,900
detecting something that you can then

1545
01:04:58,609 --> 01:04:54,960
correlate with the subjective narrative

1546
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:58,619
uh this uh this is not really a question

1547
01:05:02,569 --> 01:05:00,480
but it's just a statement here eyes on

1548
01:05:04,789 --> 01:05:02,579
Cinema has been posting some good stuff

1549
01:05:07,970 --> 01:05:04,799
over last year have you seen some of

1550
01:05:11,870 --> 01:05:07,980
their videos eyes on Cinema yes I have

1551
01:05:13,809 --> 01:05:11,880
and I I'm a bit suspicious that a lot of

1552
01:05:16,730 --> 01:05:13,819
this is being lifted from previous

1553
01:05:20,930 --> 01:05:16,740
documentaries I recognize some of the

1554
01:05:23,030 --> 01:05:20,940
pieces there's a lot of them and um that

1555
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:23,040
that person or that channel was booted

1556
01:05:26,990 --> 01:05:25,200
off of YouTube for a while I'm not

1557
01:05:29,750 --> 01:05:27,000
really sure and now they're back on this

1558
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:29,760
is for education purposes only type of

1559
01:05:34,730 --> 01:05:32,880
thing so if they were lifting film from

1560
01:05:38,630 --> 01:05:34,740
other documentaries it could have been a

1561
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:38,640
copyright issue yeah yeah but they're

1562
01:05:42,349 --> 01:05:40,319
made aware of them someone just recently

1563
01:05:45,289 --> 01:05:42,359
sent me a link yeah there's some great

1564
01:05:47,030 --> 01:05:45,299
great interviews and information there

1565
01:05:49,970 --> 01:05:47,040
wherever it's coming from it's good

1566
01:05:51,410 --> 01:05:49,980
stuff so and Martin that's that's a

1567
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:51,420
great point because there are a lot of

1568
01:05:54,589 --> 01:05:52,559
people out there getting good

1569
01:05:58,190 --> 01:05:54,599
information out there we mentioned AFU

1570
01:06:00,530 --> 01:05:58,200
and sweet Eden Isaac Coy who Barry and I

1571
01:06:03,530 --> 01:06:00,540
spoke with just recently in the UK

1572
01:06:05,210 --> 01:06:03,540
there's really great individuals and

1573
01:06:07,609 --> 01:06:05,220
institutions out there doing this work

1574
01:06:09,470 --> 01:06:07,619
already by no means are we Pioneers

1575
01:06:11,210 --> 01:06:09,480
we're simply just trying to make it the

1576
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:11,220
largest historical collection of

1577
01:06:15,230 --> 01:06:13,680
material here in the United States so my

1578
01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:15,240
hat's off to the other individuals out

1579
01:06:20,690 --> 01:06:18,000
there and organizations doing the Lion's

1580
01:06:23,210 --> 01:06:20,700
Share of work yes one of the things you

1581
01:06:25,609 --> 01:06:23,220
always think about is oh what if

1582
01:06:28,309 --> 01:06:25,619
something happens like

1583
01:06:31,010 --> 01:06:28,319
um fireproof you know is can a building

1584
01:06:32,750 --> 01:06:31,020
be made so it's less likely that

1585
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:32,760
there'll ever be a fire mean to lose all

1586
01:06:38,210 --> 01:06:34,559
these things would be just absolutely

1587
01:06:40,069 --> 01:06:38,220
terrible and so but when these goals

1588
01:06:43,370 --> 01:06:40,079
when these eventually do make their way

1589
01:06:45,890 --> 01:06:43,380
to the uh you know the university

1590
01:06:48,529 --> 01:06:45,900
they're going to be protected there I'm

1591
01:06:49,970 --> 01:06:48,539
sure absolutely and we do look to

1592
01:06:53,329 --> 01:06:49,980
hopefully secure some existing

1593
01:06:55,609 --> 01:06:53,339
Commercial Warehouse or commercial floor

1594
01:06:57,349 --> 01:06:55,619
space and most commercial buildings are

1595
01:06:59,390 --> 01:06:57,359
set up with sprinkler systems and things

1596
01:07:01,130 --> 01:06:59,400
of that nature so right yeah we

1597
01:07:02,870 --> 01:07:01,140
definitely want to try to preserve The

1598
01:07:05,329 --> 01:07:02,880
Originals again with the focus being

1599
01:07:07,370 --> 01:07:05,339
digitization but if we can retain The

1600
01:07:09,289 --> 01:07:07,380
Originals in 100 years from now have

1601
01:07:10,730 --> 01:07:09,299
people able to access Dr jail and

1602
01:07:13,010 --> 01:07:10,740
heineck's original Project Blue Book

1603
01:07:15,109 --> 01:07:13,020
records I think that that would be a

1604
01:07:17,930 --> 01:07:15,119
wonderful contribution to the Future

1605
01:07:19,970 --> 01:07:17,940
yes here's an interesting question from

1606
01:07:25,250 --> 01:07:19,980
your experience over the years have the

1607
01:07:29,270 --> 01:07:25,260
redactions become worse or less or more

1608
01:07:30,829 --> 01:07:29,280
great question uh bear well I don't

1609
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:30,839
think there's any

1610
01:07:35,750 --> 01:07:33,839
greater amount of redactions I mean I I

1611
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:35,760
think they're pretty consistent with

1612
01:07:41,150 --> 01:07:38,640
earlier documents and over time many of

1613
01:07:42,829 --> 01:07:41,160
those redactions are lifted anyway

1614
01:07:45,289 --> 01:07:42,839
so we'd have to wait and see what

1615
01:07:47,029 --> 01:07:45,299
happens with the the current crop of a

1616
01:07:50,690 --> 01:07:47,039
redacted paperwork

1617
01:07:53,329 --> 01:07:50,700
mm-hmm yeah yeah in 2017 I filed a foia

1618
01:07:56,329 --> 01:07:53,339
request to get the unredacted Air Force

1619
01:07:59,630 --> 01:07:56,339
office of special investigation files on

1620
01:08:02,089 --> 01:07:59,640
Farmington from 1950 uh because as as

1621
01:08:04,970 --> 01:08:02,099
late as 19 I think it was 85 Barry if I

1622
01:08:06,670 --> 01:08:04,980
remember the last foia attempt uh it was

1623
01:08:09,589 --> 01:08:06,680
restricted access to that information

1624
01:08:11,150 --> 01:08:09,599
and when I filed my foia request I

1625
01:08:13,370 --> 01:08:11,160
actually received a phone call from the

1626
01:08:14,930 --> 01:08:13,380
National Archives uh shocked me I

1627
01:08:16,669 --> 01:08:14,940
thought I'd get an email or a message

1628
01:08:18,229 --> 01:08:16,679
and the archivist called me goes Dave he

1629
01:08:20,630 --> 01:08:18,239
goes just want to let you know he goes

1630
01:08:22,910 --> 01:08:20,640
those files actually were Declassified

1631
01:08:25,729 --> 01:08:22,920
in 2014 three years before your request

1632
01:08:27,530 --> 01:08:25,739
and I'm happy to send those to you uh

1633
01:08:29,630 --> 01:08:27,540
what people don't realize is that when

1634
01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:29,640
these things are Declassified there's no

1635
01:08:33,769 --> 01:08:31,440
announcement that goes out to let people

1636
01:08:35,689 --> 01:08:33,779
know it's only by filing your foia

1637
01:08:38,030 --> 01:08:35,699
request you might find out that oh okay

1638
01:08:40,669 --> 01:08:38,040
those those that record is now available

1639
01:08:43,249 --> 01:08:40,679
not all of the people who work in

1640
01:08:45,470 --> 01:08:43,259
government or at The Archives uh work

1641
01:08:48,349 --> 01:08:45,480
hand in hand with one another the the

1642
01:08:50,030 --> 01:08:48,359
varying degrees of knowledge as to what

1643
01:08:53,390 --> 01:08:50,040
the records are and how whether they can

1644
01:08:56,630 --> 01:08:53,400
be released or not I wonder how those

1645
01:08:59,650 --> 01:08:56,640
decisions are made like a lot of times

1646
01:09:02,510 --> 01:08:59,660
there are so many years right where

1647
01:09:04,010 --> 01:09:02,520
they're classified and eventually that

1648
01:09:06,410 --> 01:09:04,020
will be lifted

1649
01:09:07,970 --> 01:09:06,420
and sometimes it's it in very correct me

1650
01:09:10,070 --> 01:09:07,980
if I'm wrong you're the expert in this

1651
01:09:12,410 --> 01:09:10,080
area sometimes you may have a wide

1652
01:09:15,769 --> 01:09:12,420
sweeping judgment that this records

1653
01:09:17,630 --> 01:09:15,779
group is going to stay classified and

1654
01:09:20,630 --> 01:09:17,640
ninety percent of it might be trivial

1655
01:09:22,970 --> 01:09:20,640
minutia that's in those aisles and it

1656
01:09:25,309 --> 01:09:22,980
might not be because it's UFO related

1657
01:09:26,870 --> 01:09:25,319
because the the the series of documents

1658
01:09:29,930 --> 01:09:26,880
you may want out of that huge records

1659
01:09:31,610 --> 01:09:29,940
group might only comprise 20 pages right

1660
01:09:33,769 --> 01:09:31,620
because there was this arbitrary

1661
01:09:36,709 --> 01:09:33,779
decision just to keep that records group

1662
01:09:39,229 --> 01:09:36,719
uh classified unfortunately we're

1663
01:09:41,990 --> 01:09:39,239
restricted from seeing it yeah I can

1664
01:09:43,849 --> 01:09:42,000
tell you a quick story uh I I think you

1665
01:09:47,209 --> 01:09:43,859
you may have heard of the so-called

1666
01:09:50,749 --> 01:09:47,219
estimate of the situation yes a document

1667
01:09:53,830 --> 01:09:50,759
that was written in 1948 and and alleges

1668
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:53,840
that uh UFOs are

1669
01:10:00,530 --> 01:09:55,920
interplanetary that was an early

1670
01:10:04,610 --> 01:10:00,540
conclusion by uh uh project sign well uh

1671
01:10:07,610 --> 01:10:04,620
the estimate according to Legend uh was

1672
01:10:09,950 --> 01:10:07,620
kept for a bit and it worked its way up

1673
01:10:12,050 --> 01:10:09,960
through channels the the higher brass

1674
01:10:14,510 --> 01:10:12,060
didn't feel it was supported by evidence

1675
01:10:15,530 --> 01:10:14,520
and they just ordered Declassified and

1676
01:10:18,050 --> 01:10:15,540
burned

1677
01:10:21,770 --> 01:10:18,060
and that's the way it stayed until

1678
01:10:24,729 --> 01:10:21,780
um uh Ed rupelt's book came out and told

1679
01:10:28,430 --> 01:10:24,739
a story of how he visited the Pentagon

1680
01:10:31,490 --> 01:10:28,440
and uh Dewey for an a had shown him a

1681
01:10:32,930 --> 01:10:31,500
copy of it that was in a file draw at

1682
01:10:34,669 --> 01:10:32,940
the Pentagon it should have been

1683
01:10:36,250 --> 01:10:34,679
destroyed but apparently someone had

1684
01:10:39,410 --> 01:10:36,260
saved it so

1685
01:10:41,570 --> 01:10:39,420
it was somewhat elaborated on in root

1686
01:10:43,610 --> 01:10:41,580
pelt's unpublished manuscript he went

1687
01:10:47,270 --> 01:10:43,620
into greater detail describing the

1688
01:10:50,330 --> 01:10:47,280
document and all but uh many years later

1689
01:10:54,169 --> 01:10:50,340
a colleague of mine contacted for an a

1690
01:10:56,630 --> 01:10:54,179
uh about it and Forney gave some very

1691
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:56,640
interesting detail he said at the time

1692
01:11:02,330 --> 01:11:00,000
that he was in charge of the uh the air

1693
01:11:05,810 --> 01:11:02,340
technical intelligence service Branch

1694
01:11:08,510 --> 01:11:05,820
files which were kept at the Pentagon

1695
01:11:11,810 --> 01:11:08,520
and they were part of the broader

1696
01:11:16,130 --> 01:11:11,820
current intelligence Branch records

1697
01:11:18,050 --> 01:11:16,140
now I I tried to follow up on that and I

1698
01:11:20,930 --> 01:11:18,060
discovered that the current intelligence

1699
01:11:24,709 --> 01:11:20,940
records at that time early 50s

1700
01:11:28,729 --> 01:11:24,719
constituted about 600 boxes

1701
01:11:31,070 --> 01:11:28,739
of records that were kept at archives 2

1702
01:11:32,930 --> 01:11:31,080
which is the uh a place that's a

1703
01:11:35,350 --> 01:11:32,940
clearing house for the main national

1704
01:11:38,810 --> 01:11:35,360
archives in in downtown

1705
01:11:42,709 --> 01:11:38,820
Washington and uh

1706
01:11:44,870 --> 01:11:42,719
uh those covered a myriad of topics but

1707
01:11:48,590 --> 01:11:44,880
they were all off limits the entire

1708
01:11:50,689 --> 01:11:48,600
group were classified as a whole and if

1709
01:11:53,149 --> 01:11:50,699
the estimate is in there which I suspect

1710
01:11:56,930 --> 01:11:53,159
it could be according to forney's

1711
01:11:59,330 --> 01:11:56,940
comments uh all of that would have to be

1712
01:12:02,030 --> 01:11:59,340
Declassified first before we could see

1713
01:12:04,189 --> 01:12:02,040
if uh it was there or not

1714
01:12:06,110 --> 01:12:04,199
and in Dewey fornay's material that I

1715
01:12:10,430 --> 01:12:06,120
acquired through Bill Pitts Arkansas

1716
01:12:12,709 --> 01:12:10,440
researcher uh I have a rare recording of

1717
01:12:14,750 --> 01:12:12,719
Julie describing that he did in fact see

1718
01:12:17,630 --> 01:12:14,760
the estimate and Ed rupelt had seen it

1719
01:12:20,810 --> 01:12:17,640
so we have different uh statements

1720
01:12:22,430 --> 01:12:20,820
different uh texts that reference the

1721
01:12:26,270 --> 01:12:22,440
fact that yes it was seen it was

1722
01:12:28,370 --> 01:12:26,280
described in detail and uh I think that

1723
01:12:29,750 --> 01:12:28,380
to Barry's point there may still be a

1724
01:12:31,910 --> 01:12:29,760
copy of that floating around somewhere

1725
01:12:33,169 --> 01:12:31,920
but it's a the proverbial needle in the

1726
01:12:35,810 --> 01:12:33,179
haystack

1727
01:12:38,209 --> 01:12:35,820
uh David last time we talked you said

1728
01:12:40,550 --> 01:12:38,219
the uh the website wasn't up but I just

1729
01:12:44,030 --> 01:12:40,560
happened to do a search here and you do

1730
01:12:46,729 --> 01:12:44,040
have it it's is this a launched website

1731
01:12:48,470 --> 01:12:46,739
or is this still more to uh to do with

1732
01:12:51,050 --> 01:12:48,480
it oh there'll be much more to do with

1733
01:12:53,390 --> 01:12:51,060
it we're just beginning and uh we just

1734
01:12:55,310 --> 01:12:53,400
wanted to get uh our uh public facing

1735
01:12:57,410 --> 01:12:55,320
there and one of the most important

1736
01:12:58,850 --> 01:12:57,420
things is uh and you mentioned this

1737
01:13:01,010 --> 01:12:58,860
earlier you know the money that we've

1738
01:13:03,229 --> 01:13:01,020
spent on uh Gathering and building these

1739
01:13:04,970 --> 01:13:03,239
collections but we really need the

1740
01:13:07,189 --> 01:13:04,980
support of the general public to help us

1741
01:13:09,350 --> 01:13:07,199
raise money to get a home for the

1742
01:13:11,450 --> 01:13:09,360
history as I like to put it

1743
01:13:13,370 --> 01:13:11,460
um if we can raise the money and more

1744
01:13:14,810 --> 01:13:13,380
specifically work with local uh

1745
01:13:16,669 --> 01:13:14,820
government I plan on meeting with the

1746
01:13:19,070 --> 01:13:16,679
mayor of Albuquerque as well as the

1747
01:13:21,050 --> 01:13:19,080
Mayor of Rio Rancho where I live to see

1748
01:13:24,830 --> 01:13:21,060
if there's any existing Commercial

1749
01:13:27,169 --> 01:13:24,840
Warehouse or commercial real estate uh

1750
01:13:28,630 --> 01:13:27,179
buildings that we could secure to start

1751
01:13:31,130 --> 01:13:28,640
bringing this material together

1752
01:13:34,010 --> 01:13:31,140
obviously it would add to tourism for

1753
01:13:36,649 --> 01:13:34,020
Albuquerque or the Rio Rancho area so

1754
01:13:39,950 --> 01:13:36,659
there's a practical aspect to it from a

1755
01:13:42,770 --> 01:13:39,960
government or uh you know uh Chamber of

1756
01:13:44,149 --> 01:13:42,780
Commerce standpoint but we want to be

1757
01:13:45,770 --> 01:13:44,159
able to have a location where we can

1758
01:13:47,750 --> 01:13:45,780
start doing the work start bringing all

1759
01:13:49,370 --> 01:13:47,760
of us together and I will tell you I've

1760
01:13:50,830 --> 01:13:49,380
had just in the last week a number of

1761
01:13:53,390 --> 01:13:50,840
individuals here in Albuquerque

1762
01:13:55,070 --> 01:13:53,400
volunteer stating if you get a building

1763
01:13:56,209 --> 01:13:55,080
and you bring this material together I

1764
01:13:58,149 --> 01:13:56,219
would like to come and help you start

1765
01:14:00,830 --> 01:13:58,159
scanning that material

1766
01:14:03,250 --> 01:14:00,840
or even moving it helping moving it

1767
01:14:05,689 --> 01:14:03,260
would be good yeah

1768
01:14:07,250 --> 01:14:05,699
so I could use some assistance from some

1769
01:14:10,189 --> 01:14:07,260
younger people to help move these files

1770
01:14:12,410 --> 01:14:10,199
they're they're not liked but um so

1771
01:14:13,970 --> 01:14:12,420
that's the goal but you know we we've

1772
01:14:15,830 --> 01:14:13,980
spent tens of thousands of dollars

1773
01:14:18,110 --> 01:14:15,840
collecting the material if we can help

1774
01:14:22,250 --> 01:14:18,120
raise tens of thousands of dollars to

1775
01:14:23,990 --> 01:14:22,260
secure a home for this and again it will

1776
01:14:26,870 --> 01:14:24,000
be afforded to anyone that wants to come

1777
01:14:28,370 --> 01:14:26,880
here but also it'll be available on the

1778
01:14:30,590 --> 01:14:28,380
internet once we eventually get it all

1779
01:14:33,169 --> 01:14:30,600
scanned are you going to have a place

1780
01:14:35,750 --> 01:14:33,179
where people can contact you that are

1781
01:14:37,790 --> 01:14:35,760
willing to help financially absolutely

1782
01:14:39,050 --> 01:14:37,800
our website that you just pulled up on

1783
01:14:41,810 --> 01:14:39,060
our main page we actually have a

1784
01:14:44,270 --> 01:14:41,820
donation portal and I I do like to add

1785
01:14:46,729 --> 01:14:44,280
the fact that unlike PayPal and some of

1786
01:14:49,610 --> 01:14:46,739
the other pay platforms the one that we

1787
01:14:51,890 --> 01:14:49,620
use is designed for non-profit if you

1788
01:14:53,750 --> 01:14:51,900
donate twenty dollars the organization

1789
01:14:55,189 --> 01:14:53,760
gets all twenty dollars there's no

1790
01:14:57,770 --> 01:14:55,199
skimming off the top there's no

1791
01:14:59,450 --> 01:14:57,780
percentage that's taken out so a hundred

1792
01:15:02,090 --> 01:14:59,460
percent of your donation goes towards

1793
01:15:03,770 --> 01:15:02,100
the organizational goals and then it's a

1794
01:15:06,290 --> 01:15:03,780
tax write-off as well right absolutely

1795
01:15:08,750 --> 01:15:06,300
right non-profit yeah if if you're tax

1796
01:15:11,689 --> 01:15:08,760
depending on your tax situation you have

1797
01:15:14,390 --> 01:15:11,699
to qualify it by saying that yeah yes uh

1798
01:15:17,169 --> 01:15:14,400
they are a tax deductible uh donations

1799
01:15:19,490 --> 01:15:17,179
as a 501c3 non-profit organization

1800
01:15:21,649 --> 01:15:19,500
excellent and those aren't easy to set

1801
01:15:23,870 --> 01:15:21,659
up from what I understand no and Martin

1802
01:15:27,050 --> 01:15:23,880
I will add I almost failed to mention

1803
01:15:28,610 --> 01:15:27,060
within 45 minutes of posting our press

1804
01:15:31,130 --> 01:15:28,620
release last Friday for the new

1805
01:15:33,350 --> 01:15:31,140
organization I received a message which

1806
01:15:35,570 --> 01:15:33,360
I shared with Barry and my colleagues we

1807
01:15:37,669 --> 01:15:35,580
received a a very kind message from a

1808
01:15:40,010 --> 01:15:37,679
gentleman in South America and he stated

1809
01:15:42,590 --> 01:15:40,020
David I have a collection of UFO

1810
01:15:44,330 --> 01:15:42,600
material in Portuguese would you be

1811
01:15:46,550 --> 01:15:44,340
interested in that and we said

1812
01:15:48,770 --> 01:15:46,560
absolutely and our friend our friend

1813
01:15:51,229 --> 01:15:48,780
Micah Hanks has some friends that can

1814
01:15:53,149 --> 01:15:51,239
translate Portuguese and so he's in the

1815
01:15:56,390 --> 01:15:53,159
process of boxing up that material to

1816
01:15:58,550 --> 01:15:56,400
send to us isn't that awesome that's

1817
01:16:01,490 --> 01:15:58,560
that's the power of press coverage

1818
01:16:03,050 --> 01:16:01,500
absolutely absolutely but within 45

1819
01:16:04,430 --> 01:16:03,060
minutes we already had an offer of

1820
01:16:05,270 --> 01:16:04,440
additional material that we didn't have

1821
01:16:07,189 --> 01:16:05,280
before

1822
01:16:09,110 --> 01:16:07,199
well I hope this brings even more and

1823
01:16:12,649 --> 01:16:09,120
you'll you're going to have to get the

1824
01:16:14,209 --> 01:16:12,659
bigger boat for sure yeah yeah so thank

1825
01:16:16,430 --> 01:16:14,219
you both so much it's been a real

1826
01:16:18,830 --> 01:16:16,440
pleasure and I wish you and your

1827
01:16:22,550 --> 01:16:18,840
families have a wonderful Thanksgiving

1828
01:16:24,470 --> 01:16:22,560
you as well and a good holiday too till

1829
01:16:25,790 --> 01:16:24,480
the end of the year that's right yeah

1830
01:16:28,189 --> 01:16:25,800
and my best to your audience as well

1831
01:16:29,330 --> 01:16:28,199
happy holidays everyone excellent all

1832
01:16:31,910 --> 01:16:29,340
right well you take care it's always

1833
01:16:34,669 --> 01:16:31,920
always a pleasure thank you Martin thank

1834
01:16:36,470 --> 01:16:34,679
you goodbye now bye-bye all right

1835
01:16:39,830 --> 01:16:36,480
everyone so next week we'll be back with

1836
01:16:41,810 --> 01:16:39,840
John Ramirez and xcia should be an

1837
01:16:44,750 --> 01:16:41,820
interesting show thank you so much and

1838
01:16:46,130 --> 01:16:44,760
for those of you in the U.S again uh

1839
01:16:47,870 --> 01:16:46,140
Happy Thanksgiving hope you have a

1840
01:16:49,669 --> 01:16:47,880
wonderful one and we'll see you next

1841
01:16:50,460 --> 01:16:49,679
week and remember to keep your eyes to

1842
01:16:53,570 --> 01:16:50,470
the sky

1843
01:16:53,580 --> 01:17:01,700
foreign